hatfield/mccoy guns
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john4645 said:
From what I've read, they look a lot like the Cabela's Blue Ridge or Pedersoli Frontier rifles (Pedersoli makes Cabela's gun). Originals were made by Moses Hatfield of the Hatfield & McCoy feud. Muzzleblasts online has an article from 1998 about a reproduction that is/was made by Ted Hatfield (yup, same Hatfields). Looks a lot like the Pedersoli/Cabelas gun (especially the wrist treatment and butt ) with much nicer wood. Click on the picture in the article for an image you can actually see.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Flintlocks? :rotf: Hardly! When the feud began in the 1880s the flintlock was dead, dead, dead in the mountains on the border between West Virginia and Kentucky. There may have been an occasional percussion double barrel shotgun or long percussion rifle but these people were using modern firearms. Photos show Winchester rifles, Colt and Smith and Wesson revolvers and double barrel shotguns of the breachloading variety. There are no known photos of any of member of either clan carrying a muzzleloader. Devil Anse himself was well off for his time and place and wouldn't have been caught dead using anything less than the Winchester that he was photographed carrying at least twice. Johnse Hatfield (Roseanna McCoy's "star crossed" lover) was photographed in a portrait during the so called "feud" carrying a Winchester and it goes on and on...
Now, before the time of the feud they definately carried muzzle loaders but then so did everyone else. These people were smart, hardworking mountain folk who were not dirt poor and did have communication with the outside world despite what stories in national papers and local tourist and family lore
bull: ) say. Snuffy Smith they were'nt!
For photos see:
[url] http://www.libby-genealogy.com/hatfield-mccoy.htm[/url]
[url] http://www.libby-genealogy.com/mccoy_hatfield_pics.htm[/url]
You won't see a muzzleloader in the bunch but of course the photos are mainly from the time of the actual "feud" times of the 1880s and 1890s, not before when trouble was brewing in the 1860s and '70s.
Now, before the time of the feud they definately carried muzzle loaders but then so did everyone else. These people were smart, hardworking mountain folk who were not dirt poor and did have communication with the outside world despite what stories in national papers and local tourist and family lore
bull: ) say. Snuffy Smith they were'nt! For photos see:
[url] http://www.libby-genealogy.com/hatfield-mccoy.htm[/url]
[url] http://www.libby-genealogy.com/mccoy_hatfield_pics.htm[/url]
You won't see a muzzleloader in the bunch but of course the photos are mainly from the time of the actual "feud" times of the 1880s and 1890s, not before when trouble was brewing in the 1860s and '70s.
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Guest
You are correct. It is kinda funny that the more modern cartridge guns and MLers lived sidebyside in the hill country for many years. Whereas the Winchester rifle and (more frequently) single shot cartridge shotgun reigned supreme, some folks clung to their percussion longguns as late as the 1950s or 60s (I saw them there). Six shooters were common, too, among some types. There were shootin' fueds in the Tenn/Ky border areas at least up to 1960.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Yep, same on the Virginia/West Virginia border where I grew up. In some way, the back-woods area saw more modern firearms show up for serious work than in more populated ares. They were too important to life and survival and they were a status symbol. A good, modern rifle was as important to a mountaineer in 1880 as a good solid pick-up truck is to his great great grandson today... john4645, I hope this discussion helped.
Seems like I saw a picture in a documentary about that feud, and one of the patriachs was holding an early Remington autoloader. The one with the sleeve over the barrel. I disremember the model, autoloaders are not my cup of tea.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Post Rider said:
:applause: Indeed he did in actual fact, good point. The possession of modern arms was not universal but what has that got to do with the Hatfield/McCoy feud and what they used at the time? But you are talking about a different time and a very different, relatively peaceful place not to mention a different "arms race" in the given situation. Do remember though that the movie character Alvin York used a modern revolver in one scene and it is possible that the real Alvin had access to a better long arm but just shot better with the muzzleloader? Besides, its Hollywood, were are talking about what was really used in the specific feud. The socio-economic situation was very different as well, as I said above both the Hatfield and McCoy families were relatively well off financially for their time and place and were in a power struggle based on land and resource as well as political control. It is possible that some of their lower class minions may have used percussion guns at the time but the flintlock was certainly a thing of the past. Ooops! :yakyak: Sorry, there I go again... :shocked2:
Guest
Post Rider said:
I believe that part is true, which illustrates my point above that MLers and cartridge guns existed sidebyside in the mountains. My own folks came out of the Ozarks and moved to the "big city" of Little Rock ca. 1920. Soon as he could afford it, grandpa bought a Rem Mod 11 Auto shotgun and never looked back {don't know what happened to his old guns}. But as a youth in the 50s, I saw MLers still in use in the back country.
I've read several things about Alvin York's life and do know he was a consultant on the movie about his life and is suppose to have made sure about the accuracy of the props used in the film. I belive the most recent was in Military History magazine, but would have to do some digging to find it. Agree strongly that muzzleloaders and breechloaders lived along each other well into the 20th century. Just like many carried percussion revolvers well into the cartridge era, no need to buy something new just because it's new!
Guest
Skagan said:
FWIW - Sgt York did his duty with an 1917 Enfield and a M1911 Colt...still a long way......
"From what I've read, they look a lot like the Cabela's Blue Ridge or Pedersoli Frontier rifles (Pedersoli makes Cabela's gun"
Has anyone seen a pic of THE gun that Hatfield supposedly used as a model for his new Hatfield later, to be Blue ridge rifle? I think the Hatfield gun is a very generic long gun much like the TC Hawken and all the other production Hawkins and not a particularly PC version of a particular type of gun.
Has anyone seen a pic of THE gun that Hatfield supposedly used as a model for his new Hatfield later, to be Blue ridge rifle? I think the Hatfield gun is a very generic long gun much like the TC Hawken and all the other production Hawkins and not a particularly PC version of a particular type of gun.
Sutallee
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It is not widely known, but the Hatfields were somewhat well off compared to some of the mountain people of their time. In fact, Devil Anse Hatfield, the family patriarch, owned and worked several thousand acres of timber land in West Virginia. For this reason, I think that the Hatfields could probably afford modern firearms and ammunition.
There is a famous photo that was taken by a reporter in 1897 that shows the Hatfields on their front porch. Most of the males of the family are holding a modern weapon. Most of the guns are Colt SAAs and Winchester 1883 lever action rifles. You can likely find that photo with a Google on "Devil Anse Hatfield".
There is a famous photo that was taken by a reporter in 1897 that shows the Hatfields on their front porch. Most of the males of the family are holding a modern weapon. Most of the guns are Colt SAAs and Winchester 1883 lever action rifles. You can likely find that photo with a Google on "Devil Anse Hatfield".
Even though I agree that the Hatfields and McCoys were probably not using flintlocks, this article shows that a flintlock was used to kill a deer in 1869 in Wayne County WV. Apparantly deer were so scarse at that time that this incident was news worthy.
Wayne County News
August 9, 1923
OLD TIMER TELL OF KILLING DEER
IN WAYNE COUNTY
Bostic Brumfield, Sr., who lives a mile South of Wayne, will celebrate his 75th birthday next Monday, the 13th. Mr. Brumfield is one of the county's pioneers and recalls the days when Wayne county was the home of deer, bear and other wild animals now extinct.
Mr. Brumfield recalls shooting a deer in 1869 near what is now the Millard Johnson farm near Iverson Shoals; in the year'74 he shot another deer at the mouth of Wolfe Creek. In those days the woodland of the country was infested with wild hogs which afforded real sport for hunters. He recalls one hunting experience as follows:
"In the year 1869 while I was going to school to Ligan Bowen at lower Newcomb, at the noon hour one day we heard a pack of hounds coming and we looked and saw a deer leap through the school yard. Saul Harmon and myself got permission from the teacher to follow the deer. The ice was partly frozen on Twelve Pole, but the deer crossed anyway. The creek full of ice bluffed all the dogs except one named "Pot Licker" owned by Fletcher Garrett. That dog never stopped and neither did Harmon and myself.
"As we went along we borrowed an old flint lock rifle from R. M. Luther, who used to be county surveyor. We kept in the chase till we got just opposite "Buger Hollow," near Millard Johnson's. At this point I shot the deer, while "Pot Licker" was close on his heels. Harmon and I skinned the deer, tied it on a pole and carried it home."
Mr. Brumfield recalled going to school to America Showater at Buffalo Shoals in 1858. Of the forty pupils in school then only three are living: Mr. Brumfield, M. F. Drown and Luke Drown. At that time one of the duties of the teacher was to make goose quill pens while the pupils would write their lessons. Brumfield and B. G. Chapman, of Wayne, were school mates 66 years ago. Mr. Brumfield still has in his possession a little book given to him by Mrs. Showater on his birthday in 1858. Mrs. Showater was the daughter of the late Benj. Drown, Sr., and was the mother of M. F. Drown and G. B. Booth, both well known Wayne citizens.
Wayne County News
August 9, 1923
OLD TIMER TELL OF KILLING DEER
IN WAYNE COUNTY
Bostic Brumfield, Sr., who lives a mile South of Wayne, will celebrate his 75th birthday next Monday, the 13th. Mr. Brumfield is one of the county's pioneers and recalls the days when Wayne county was the home of deer, bear and other wild animals now extinct.
Mr. Brumfield recalls shooting a deer in 1869 near what is now the Millard Johnson farm near Iverson Shoals; in the year'74 he shot another deer at the mouth of Wolfe Creek. In those days the woodland of the country was infested with wild hogs which afforded real sport for hunters. He recalls one hunting experience as follows:
"In the year 1869 while I was going to school to Ligan Bowen at lower Newcomb, at the noon hour one day we heard a pack of hounds coming and we looked and saw a deer leap through the school yard. Saul Harmon and myself got permission from the teacher to follow the deer. The ice was partly frozen on Twelve Pole, but the deer crossed anyway. The creek full of ice bluffed all the dogs except one named "Pot Licker" owned by Fletcher Garrett. That dog never stopped and neither did Harmon and myself.
"As we went along we borrowed an old flint lock rifle from R. M. Luther, who used to be county surveyor. We kept in the chase till we got just opposite "Buger Hollow," near Millard Johnson's. At this point I shot the deer, while "Pot Licker" was close on his heels. Harmon and I skinned the deer, tied it on a pole and carried it home."
Mr. Brumfield recalled going to school to America Showater at Buffalo Shoals in 1858. Of the forty pupils in school then only three are living: Mr. Brumfield, M. F. Drown and Luke Drown. At that time one of the duties of the teacher was to make goose quill pens while the pupils would write their lessons. Brumfield and B. G. Chapman, of Wayne, were school mates 66 years ago. Mr. Brumfield still has in his possession a little book given to him by Mrs. Showater on his birthday in 1858. Mrs. Showater was the daughter of the late Benj. Drown, Sr., and was the mother of M. F. Drown and G. B. Booth, both well known Wayne citizens.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Well, that's nice. The article tells about an incident in 1869 when at least percussion firearms were common in use all over the country, not just the backwoods, the flintlock could have been in use by some older folk at that time as well. With the H&M Feud, we are talking about a slightly later period, the 1880s - 1890s period. 25 years can make a great deal of difference, especially in a time of leap-frogging arms developments that was seen in the third quarter of the 19th Century, so things had changed a lot by that time. And no one ever said that percussion guns were out of use at even that late date, quite the opposite actually, they were in common use into at least the 1940s in some places in W.Va. as well as Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, etc., etc. However, the original question was about the use of flintlocks in the Feud. They were not. As I and others have said, both the Hatfields and McCoys were relatively well off people, some would even call Devil Anse Hatfield a rich man, and had the income and circumstances that would allow them to purchase up-to-date firearms - photographic evidence prooves this point quite well. These were not poor, inbred "hillbillies" as the news media of the time wanted to portary them and we need to stop thinking of them like that today.
BTW, the deer population was over-hunted for generations in the east and by the 1920s (I believe) the deer population was almost extinct like the buffalo. Deer was not considered a legal game animal until almost the 1950s. However, the story seems to be focusing more on the use of the borrowed flintlock rifle than the thinning deer population.
The article tells about an incident in 1869 when at least percussion firearms were common in use all over the country, not just the backwoods, the flintlock could have been in use by some older folk at that time as well. With the H&M Feud, we are talking about a slightly later period, the 1880s - 1890s period. 25 years can make a great deal of difference, especially in a time of leap-frogging arms developments that was seen in the third quarter of the 19th Century, so things had changed a lot by that time. And no one ever said that percussion guns were out of use at even that late date, quite the opposite actually, they were in common use into at least the 1940s in some places in W.Va. as well as Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, etc., etc. However, the original question was about the use of flintlocks in the Feud. They were not. As I and others have said, both the Hatfields and McCoys were relatively well off people, some would even call Devil Anse Hatfield a rich man, and had the income and circumstances that would allow them to purchase up-to-date firearms - photographic evidence prooves this point quite well. These were not poor, inbred "hillbillies" as the news media of the time wanted to portary them and we need to stop thinking of them like that today.BTW, the deer population was over-hunted for generations in the east and by the 1920s (I believe) the deer population was almost extinct like the buffalo. Deer was not considered a legal game animal until almost the 1950s. However, the story seems to be focusing more on the use of the borrowed flintlock rifle than the thinning deer population.
Guest
I was born and raised in McDowell County WV.
I was researching my Grandmothers maiden name (Belcher)a few years ago.I think It was around the time period of the late 1700s.One of the Belchers had rescued a woman and her children that were captured by the Shawnee. The womans husband was murdered by the Shawnee so Belcher latered married the woman. If I remember correctly there Grandson was Devil Lance Hatfield.
I was researching my Grandmothers maiden name (Belcher)a few years ago.I think It was around the time period of the late 1700s.One of the Belchers had rescued a woman and her children that were captured by the Shawnee. The womans husband was murdered by the Shawnee so Belcher latered married the woman. If I remember correctly there Grandson was Devil Lance Hatfield.
I knew an old gentleman in Oroville, California, who knew Devil Anse when he was a boy. He told me that one time aboard a train, the conductor came down the aisle and said "Now Devil Anse, I know you are armed. Give me the cylinder from your revolver." Devil Anse pulled a Colt in .38-40 and handed over the cylinder for the conductor's safe keeping. After the conductor had left the car, Devil Anse winked at the boy and pulled a fresh cylinder from another pocket and slipped it into his Colt. When he got off the train he told the conductor to give the other cylinder to the boy. When I heard this story from Golden Land about 1970, he told me it was the very Colt .38-40 cylinder on his desk. Mr. Land was about 90 at the time.
jimpickens
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Born and raised in Lewis county WV I have read and watched plenty of stuff on the Hatfeilds and McCoys and both sides always had repeating rifles and breechloading shotguns maybe a few singleshots and the handguns were all revolvers either single or double action not one single muzzleloader to be seen.
