Hawken Reproduction

[French Colonial]

I must be a dummy. I still don't understand. My rear tang screw goes through the stock and screws into the trigger guard which strengthens the wrist area.

What am I missing?

Look at the schematic, the trigger plate, part number 34, it goes from in front of the trigger guard to behind the trigger guard. On the picture right below it the trigger plate stops short of the trigger guard.

 

[user 36911]

Ah, ok I see now.

Well, I guess I better not use my gun as a club like I read they did back in the day. I've seen original Hawken's with wrist repairs.

The way I baby my guns I won't have a problem but it is a bit disappointing that Pedersoli did it right on the Hawken with their name on it and went a different route for Lyman. I believe Lyman did ask for a 32" length barrel and bluing to keep it the same as the old Lyman/Investarm guns.

I'm ok with what I have. I'm growing closer to it everyday. I can't wait to lug it around this fall at 11,000ft. Heavy it is but a hunting load has a nice soft recoil.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

I think we get too wrapped up in authenticity. The rifles built by the Hawken Brothers and later J.P. Gemmer were not mass produced. We have all read that they could be built to order for whatever the buyer wanted. Just take a look at the originals pictured in Baird's book. All sorts of variants.

The Thompson Center guns were based on sporting rifles of the era. I have a Seneca in .45 caliber. It is a modern made rifle along the lines of a New England sporting rifle.

The Hawken rifle was built for hard use in a rugged environment. It was heavy and like a earlier post mentioned meant to be carried on horseback or wagon, not still-hunting.

There were certain features that were somewhat consistent. Buy the best one that you can reasonably afford and have fun with it. Jake, Sam, or J.P. are not around to tell us what is authentic. We have to settle for images, surviving examples, written documentation, and creative license.

 

[user 36911]

I've read over and over that the Hawken was made to be carried on a horse. That may be when traveling but when hunting you have to carry it. Who hunts from a horse? It's hard to sneak up on game on foot. Impossible on a horse.

If I can carry a Hawken at my age. It would be easy when I was in my 20-30's. Still easy in the 40's. In almost my 80's. Not so much but i'm not quitting.

 

[FishDFly]

The game in the early 1800's was not as savvy as it is today. It is written in some areas that it was possible to pick up beavers by hand as they had not seen humans and had no fear initially.

Just finished reading two different books on Jedediah Smith and in each book it they talked about the large number of trappers in each group. It would take a lot of game to feed that many men. I have a feeling that a lot of game was shot from horse back. The Indians shot a lot of buffalo from horse back.

 

[user 36911]

Mostly Indians ran the buffalo off cliffs. Buffalo hunters snuck up on them and took fairly long shots.

That's buffalo. Deer and other game would be too spooky to hunt from horse. Game have a natural fear of predators. They would know humans were predators.

The guns aren't that heavy. They were tough back then.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Mostly Indians ran the buffalo off cliffs. Buffalo hunters snuck up on them and took fairly long shots.

That's buffalo. Deer and other game would be too spooky to hunt from horse. Game have a natural fear of predators. They would know humans were predators.

The guns aren't that heavy. They were tough back then.

This just ain't entirely true. Running buff was often accomplished on horseback and Indians were known to do it with spear and bow. That's of course referring to western buffs. The eastern ones were easy to kill off because they literally didn't run when shot at. I agree deer would run, but some animals didn't. This is why the bison were the last of the megafauna left in America. All the others(sloths, mastodon, early native horses that predated Columbus) were killed off because of their lack of predator fear. Megafauna like bison, and even the aurox in Europe, just weren't afraid of most animals because of size and herding.

Bison barely even flee from wolf packs. They'll stand withing 50 yards of the one bison the wolves zero in on for the kill, just watching.
You want spooky? I was spooked when an 11 point white tail walked out of the woods and looked at me in the open like he was gonna tear my doghouse down from 15 yards away. Thankfully I shot him in the neck and dropped him like a sack of potatoes. During the rut, whitetails may be wary, but they ain't scared.

 

[user 36911]

Depends on how you want to define scared. Bison and moose aren't scared. That's why they're easy to kill. When humans or animals run away I define it as scared.

My best friend is a Lakota Indian. He's really into the old ways. He's named after his great grandfather who was at the fight at the Little Big Horn. His name is Tall Soldier. He told me about running buffalo off of cliffs. The women would be at the bottom skinning and butchering. They only ran off what they needed. Unlike the buffalo hunters who killed them all. What a shame White man greed.

It took a lot to become friends with Tall Soldier. He tested me a lot. They admire bravery and I was tested a lot. Now were good friends and have each other backs.

I'm not sure how I got into talking about this. Buffalo I guess. Anyway, back to the topic. If I can carry the Hawken. The mountain men sure could of and a lot easier than me.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Depends on how you want to define scared. Bison and moose aren't scared. That's why they're easy to kill. When humans or animals run away I define it as scared.

My best friend is a Lakota Indian. He's really into the old ways. He's named after his great grandfather who was at the fight at the Little Big Horn. His name is Tall Soldier. He told me about running buffalo off of cliffs. The women would be at the bottom skinning and butchering. They only ran off what they needed. Unlike the buffalo hunters who killed them all. What a shame White man greed.

It took a lot to become friends with Tall Soldier. He tested me a lot. They admire bravery and I was tested a lot. Now were good friends and have each other backs.

I'm not sure how I got into talking about this. Buffalo I guess. Anyway, back to the topic. If I can carry the Hawken. The mountain men sure could of and a lot easier than me.

Fair enough, but their ain't any cliffs in Kansas is my point. Ain't cliffs in many of the places buff used to roam. Deer usually don't run first either. They challenge with a stomp or a blow. They only run when they are sure they are threatened. Kinda like me.

 

[user 36911]

Tall Soldier is from So Dakota. His tribe is still there. I have no idea what the terrain is like there.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Tall Soldier is from So Dakota. His tribe is still there. I have no idea what the terrain is like there.

Must be the Western part he hails from. The eastern part is pretty much plains.

 

[Cattywompuss]

French Colonial, sorry we went off on a tangent. Apparently, it's what MtnMan and I do. Shell out for a GRRW and call it a day.

 

[French Colonial]

French Colonial, sorry we went off on a tangent. Apparently, it's what MtnMan and I do. Shell out for a GRRW and call it a day.

Oh no! I have no intention of buying a Hawken, I was just curious.

One of the things that I can not get out of my head is that not every "Mountain Man" in the 1830's carried a Hawken but every one reenacting one today thinks that they can not have anything but.

It would make more sense to me to have any contemporary to the time period or earlier rifle of large caliber regardless of where it was made.
Just as people of today cling to things that technology has obsoleted I could see a man of the west using a rifle 20 years older than the date because it was his, he had always had good service from it, he remembered that fantastic shot he made from that distance no one else believes...... and besides who needs one of those new Hawken guns, they will never catch on! Besides my 1803 Harpers Ferry is the best gun ever made (says the old mountain man)

Flintlocks forever!

 

[user 36911]

Speaking for myself. I fell in love when I first saw a Hawken. My era is later than the early fur trade era. Call it 1835 forward. A hunter frontiersman living in the mountains.

I did the longrifle flintlock and it was ok but it didn't satisfy me like the Hawken.

Different strokes and all that stuff.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When I started shooting, I wanted a Hawken rifle. My T/C, CVA Mountain Rifle and Browning rifle were nice rifles and I enjoyed shooting them. I decided to build a more or less Sam Hawken Plains rifle. Built it and it is very accurate. Of course the black powder addiction meant I couldn't just stop there. A study of history and reading and rereading the books on the Hawken rifle in the mountain man era, especially on the plains rifle put me on the path to building a flint lock rifle typical of a rifle in use. I had a plank stock, a tapered Getz barrel and the Deringer rifle in the "Trade Rifle Sketch Book" by Hansen really seemed like the way to go. It took several years to build with family and career eating up a lot of my time. But I feel as if that rifle is more in line with a rifle used during the Mountain Man era.

The rifle is sort of hidden in the grass and there is no documentation for the Harper's Ferry Rifle being of use in the mountains. The Harper's Ferry was still in active use by the US army.

My Deringer rifle is not as nice asthe one built by @rich pierce, but it suits me.

 

[OldMaineWoodsman]

It's both a progression and interests. I always enjoyed studying the fur trade/mountain man era. I started out with a used CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber. I learned a lot with that rifle. I foolishly traded it for a left hand Thompson Center Renegade. Well made rifle but I just could not get it to shoot well. Being a Browning fan, I obtained a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle in .54 caliber. Very well made and accurate. Personally, I liked the single trigger.

I attended a shoot and got to handle a custom Hawken replica. That really got the interest up. I finally got to a point in my career where I could afford to order one. I got lucky because when I contacted the builder he happened to have a left hand .54 that a guy failed to pay the balance on after many notices. I didn't drag my feet.

I kept a Thompson Center Seneca in .45 caliber but sold off or traded my right hand guns. My Hawken is my go to rifle, but I know the day will come when I just can't lug it around like I used to, so the Seneca will be there for me.

Wish I had also kept the Browning as it is a nice looking, accurate rifle.

 

[user 36911]

Don't think that way. If you can do the rest of the hunt you can lug a heavy Hawken. It's way lighter than the meat we carry out.

 

[Are. M.]

This is an awesome informative thread, y'all.

Since we're on the subject of authentic reproduction, I have a question of my own.

Which form of ignition was used more on the traditional hawkens? Flint or Cap? How long was the transition period?

 

[user 36911]

What do you mean by traditional Hawken? Half stock?

 

[LME]

lyman great plains rifle

The Lyman is a very good rifle but it isn't a good copy of a Hawkin. The snail appears to be cut flat instead of the graceful shape rifles like ones made by Uberti are.