Hawken Rifles, What's All The Hoopla?!

[Snake Pleskin]

View attachment 161385
I like Hawken rifles. Always have and always will. But I also like the Tennessee's, Lancasters, and Southern rifles.

very nice looking rifle!

 

[Snake Pleskin]

You can make light of it, but in those days it could have been a more than reasonable alternative for a while; witness the Nigerian Civil war when the Biafran seperatists successfully used Rocket equipped Light aircraft in both air combat and ground attack roles; again the Rhodesian bush war where so called obsolete Hawker Hunter aircraft played a major role in ground attack support for our Rhodesian ground troops particularly on external operations.

The SKyRaider in Nam was an excellent gun/bomb platform and was deadly in ground attack support.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I think the "Hoopla" of the Hawken rifle is this- It was the pinnacle of cap fired rifles. All of the subtle improvements over the years culminated into it's final form before it was surpassed by technology. It's form was the art, it's art was the form.
Purpose built and the best for that purpose at that given time/place in history.
Never to be repeated.


Kinda the same way the P-51 Mustang was the pinnacle of piston/propeller aircraft. Again, purpose built and the best for that purpose at that given time/place in history.
Never to be repeated.

Cadillac of the sky!

 

[Coinneach]

The SKyRaider in Nam was an excellent gun/bomb platform and was deadly in ground attack support.

Watched them coming in myself as Air support and was grateful for it, those "old uns" arent necessarily obsolete in their function for a battlefield application.

 

[Cubreac]

All hobbies are dying out because young punks want video game style gratification.

Having raised a couple of "young punks" I have observed they are too busy keeping their heads above water financially, working two jobs, to have an expensive hobby. Hobbies are dying out because most people don't have free time or spare cash. Most CW reenactments I've seen are made up men like me, old and fat. That's not historically correct either.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Having raised a couple of "young punks" I have observed they are too busy keeping their heads above water financially, working two jobs, to have an expensive hobby. Hobbies are dying out because most people don't have free time or spare cash. Most CW reenactments I've seen are made up men like me, old and fat. That's not historically correct either.

I have raised three, one is a teacher, one is a "baker" and one does HVAC. Other than the one who is a teacher, the other two refused schooling, though I tried on several occasions. I had the same talk with al of them. #1. YOU pay up front now for what you want later in life. In other words, you go to school, you work hard while doing it, you do the absolute best you can at it, you sacrifice, you do not buy toys, go on vacation etc, until you get it done. Then later on it pays you back .#2. Second words of wisdom i gave to them were. You can do what you want, but when you decide to make stained glass artwork in small town Jabip and wonder why you have no money, refer to #1 piece of advice I gave you! If YOUR children made "poor" choices, it is not your fault unless you did not try and get them to make better choices. Life is hard and when you make poor choices it is even more hard. However, do not allow them to escape responsibility for their earlier choices. It is what it is. (IMHO)

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Watched them coming in myself as Air support and was grateful for it, those "old uns" arent necessarily obsolete in their function for a battlefield application.

Yes, I remember and it was a sight I'll not forget. I was always glad I was not the intended target as the rockets, napalm and guns rained death & destruction from above on the hapless enemy below. War suks. You do what needs to be done, then you live with it.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

You don't know the first thing about me arsch mit ohren. Not one damned thing. As far as I can see, you're one of those bloated "hard core" types that drive people away. I retired from wwi after 31 years and turned my unit over to young guys. Guess what, old guys trying to be soldiers is wrong. Are you staying to long? I could care less about farb camp gear. Go to your "hard core" camp and you can do what you want. Oh wait, you reenacted in the 70s, so you're more of a geezer than me. Far be it for me to criticize your impression, but...

why do we even care? I don't! A bunch of old guys want to play dress up. No one really cares. These groups will be dead and gone in a decade. Self destruction. it always happens.

 

[sturmkatze]

why do we even care? I don't! A bunch of old guys want to play dress up. No one really cares. These groups will be dead and gone in a decade. Self destruction. it always happens.

Could be. Maybe not. There are young guys into it. If it does, it could be politics that kill it -- like the bs Bushy Run thing. Or the evyils of coonfederates or having them thar nazzis in ww2 reenacting. Maybe Vietnam reenacting will be the next to be on the sights of the fickle public -- who knows? People are entitled to their own beliefs and hobbies.

This all started here when mentioning the "no Hawken" signs at silly war events. There was a reason, whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Could be. Maybe not. There are young guys into it. If it does, it could be politics that kill it -- like the bs Bushy Run thing. Or the evyils of coonfederates or having them thar nazzis in ww2 reenacting. Maybe Vietnam reenacting will be the next to be on the sights of the fickle public -- who knows? People are entitled to their own beliefs and hobbies.

This all started here when mentioning the "no Hawken" signs at silly war events. There was a reason, whether you agree with it or not.

Isn't it possible that during the Civil War era people also owned Hawken style rifles? Wouldn't a "local", farmer etc use what ever he had handy to defend hearth & home?

 

[JohnnieT]

Isn't it possible that during the Civil War era people also owned Hawken style rifles? Wouldn't a "local", farmer etc use what ever he had handy to defend hearth & home?

It’s entirely possible, but the use of a Hawken in the rank and file is pretty unlikely. It would mostly be limited to the very early actions in the western theater. The south tried to standardize military arms as much as possible (within the limits of availability they were forced to contend with).

With that being said, we always tried to make room for those guys, within reason. If one of us had a musket to loan, no problem. If not, maybe a civilian impression. If we couldn’t do that, we would try to at least include them in drill, camp guard rosters, etc. until they obtained a passable musket. Trying to enforce a standard while also trying to include as many people as possible is a tough position to be in, but it can be made to work with a reasonable amount of creativity.

 

[Dispatch]

My question is this, were Hawken's known for being fitted with scopes like on Sharps or Whitworth rifles of the period?

 

[Walkingeagle]

My question is this, were Hawken's known for being fitted with scopes like on Sharps or Whitworth rifles of the period? View attachment 161492

Sure they were. After all I have a vintage genuine Hawken (says Hawken right on the barrel!!) percussion rifle in .54, which I bought tapped for scope mounts and the hammer spur modified to accommodate. It also has a K serial number. Lol.

Walk

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Scopes were probably on some but they were not in widespread use because they were somewhat delicate and subject to weather and large and cumbersome. etc.IMHO

 

[Dispatch]

Sure they were. After all I have a vintage genuine Hawken (says Hawken right on the barrel!!) percussion rifle in .54, which I bought tapped for scope mounts and the hammer spur modified to accommodate. It also has a K serial number. Lol.

Walk

I ask on account, been contemplating having one a certain way but that which would be all period correct...

 

[Mike in FL]

Our hobby is our passion. I wish the arguments and insults would stop. No reason for it. Some here are extremely knowledgeable about what guns fit into what era. But not all of us. My favorite time in American history is also my most studied -- the Appalachian reason 1740-1750. I know some stuff about those times including what guns men carried. Yet my favorite historical firearm is the sturdy and powerful Hawken and a real man's defence gun and game getter. To me it's like the difference between a beautiful ivory handled slim dagger and a mountain man's bowie. Tough and dangerous to serve him in the wilderness doing many chores.
I've had longrifles. My last was a Jim Chambers early PA. His best maple, large Siler lock, and a 44" swamped barrel with round-bottom rifling. Balance was a dream. But like the originals the butt stock was hugely wide. Really thick. Superbly accurate. But in truth it looked and felt like a fine piece of furniture. I should have opted for the late Pennsylvania. Anyway, I started drooling over Hawkins and their less elegant but more functional possibles. Now I am a flintlock Hawken man all the way. It as been said many times the Hawken was a mountain man's rifle during the fur trade in the far west. But did you know the mountain man fur trapper's time only lasted 20 years? The beaver they craved (for money) became scarce about the time Europe decided that the stylish beaver felt hat was no linger in style. I don't think many if those rugged men stayed in the wild places with their big bore Hawkens. Not many have survived.
I'm not sure and don't much care how whether my Hawken rifle fits precisely into history or not, the way I use it. But I hope my stuff nor myself are never a source of contention among my brother muzzleloaders. I hunt with it in FL, SC, and VA, unlikely places indeed from where they were used "back then."

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Our hobby is our passion. I wish the arguments and insults would stop. No reason for it. Some here are extremely knowledgeable about what guns fit into what era. But not all of us. My favorite time in American history is also my most studied -- the Appalachian reason 1740-1750. I know some stuff about those times including what guns men carried. Yet my favorite historical firearm is the sturdy and powerful Hawken and a real man's defence gun and game getter. To me it's like the difference between a beautiful ivory handled slim dagger and a mountain man's bowie. Tough and dangerous to serve him in the wilderness doing many chores.
I've had longrifles. My last was a Jim Chambers early PA. His best maple, large Siler lock, and a 44" swamped barrel with round-bottom rifling. Balance was a dream. But like the originals the butt stock was hugely wide. Really thick. Superbly accurate. But in truth it looked and felt like a fine piece of furniture. I should have opted for the late Pennsylvania. Anyway, I started drooling over Hawkins and their less elegant but more functional possibles. Now I am a flintlock Hawken man all the way. It as been said many times the Hawken was a mountain man's rifle during the fur trade in the far west. But did you know the mountain man fur trapper's time only lasted 20 years? The beaver they craved (for money) became scarce about the time Europe decided that the stylish beaver felt hat was no linger in style. I don't think many if those rugged men stayed in the wild places with their big bore Hawkens. Not many have survived.
I'm not sure and don't much care how whether my Hawken rifle fits precisely into history or not, the way I use it. But I hope my stuff nor myself are never a source of contention among my brother muzzleloaders. I hunt with it in FL, SC, and VA, unlikely places indeed from where they were used "back then."

If it works for you , that is al that matters IMHO

 

[Walkingeagle]

I ask because I'm contemplating getting one and wanted to set it up a certain way but that would be all period correct...

Please excuse my attempt at humor. My post is, of course, referring to a vintage TC Hawken kit gun that someone drilled and tapped for a modern scope. I do not have the experience nor knowledge to assist you in your quest.
Walk

 

[Joemolf]

Movies like "the Last of the Mohicans." and "The Patriot" also reinforced peoples positive view of long rifles.(IMHO) There were many movies with stars like Kirk Douglas, Clark Gable. Charlton Heston, John Houston, Richard Harris, and others etc were all in movies depicting the Mountain man era etc or at least Hollywood's view of it. All this exposure made ML more popular.(IMHO)

Sounds like we need another good movie to bring the flavor back! Flintlocks and cap and ball are lots of fun and challenging.

 

[rickystl]

Interesting Thread. As my memory serves, I remember after the release of the movie Jeremiah Johnson in 1972, the interest in plains style rifles in general, and Hawken style rifles in particular took off like a rocket. During the 1970's and 80's T/C must have sold a zillion guns. They were everywhere. LOL Then, custom barrel maker, Bill Large had a one-year waiting list for just a barrel. I also remember Art Ressel letting me hold and shoulder his favorite original Hawken plains rifle from his collection (think he had 4 or 5 ?) That's when he lived in my area back then and owned The Hawken Shop in St. Louis. Today, there seems to still be a solid following for these guns in the M/L fraternity. While my favorite guns are flint/Colonial style guns, I would never consider my collection of muzzle loaders complete without a plains rifle in the Hawken style. This one built by Roy Stroh in .58 caliber with a transition style lock.

Rick