Hawkens East?

[Banjoman]

All the recent talk about Thompson Center got me thinking about real Hawken rifles (not the one in this picture ). I can read various accounts and stories of real Hawken rifles going west of the Mississippi, but how common was it for Hawken rifles to be sent or taken back East? I don’t recall seeing any in the collections of old Appalachian rifles. Were they too expensive for folks back East or was there just no market for them where the long rifles were made?

 

[Phil Coffins]

Collectors buy, sell, trade and travel all over. Where a gun is now has little to do with where it’s been or was used. I find it common for there being little original writing of the brand or maker of guns in frontier times. They will say something about having a gun but generally no details that I would be very interested in.

 

[oldwood]

Hawken rifles were supposed to be used on western big game , and carried on horse back until needed. There were so many places in the East making half stock rifles post 1800 , like Pgh. , Pa. , and a host of other gun making centers down along the Ohio River , there was no reason to buy a Hawken rifle in the East. In the 1960's , and early 1970's , many antique dealers still were buying and selling original antique half stock m/l rifles. When these Eastern made rifles were first made , they would have been in competition with Hawken , and were better suited for Eastern game and shooting matches of the day. Many of the Eastern rifles were left over due to the advent of cartridge rifles. I restored a few of these guns kept as family heirlooms. Never saw a Hawken rifle except in pictures. Did read an obscure article in the early 1970's stating that T/Center rifles were actually heavily influenced from a school of rifle builders in New York State. My hunting /shooting buddy got an early T/C rifle in 1971 to use in the Pa. late Flintlock deer season , and was told the same thing , that the rifle from T/C was actually a copy of a rifle made in NY State , just before ctg. rifles came on post American Civil War. Hope this helps , rather than confuses. In the M/L story , there always seems to be more to the story. Gotta just keep digging through the old info.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Phil said all that needs to be said on this subject.

 

[LongWalker]

Rifles got around to places that weren't within the makers' primary market. I know of at least 3 Hawkens (including one rather nice one) with provenance of having been taken "back east" as souvenirs of someone's time in the west. There are two in a collection in Scotland: one purchased by the father for a trip west, the other by his son when he went to California in the late 1850s.

Several Hawkens were collected in Illinois, one in Alabama, one in the northern coastal states (sorry, can't recall where). Unfortunately, there is little provenance on these rifles.

 

[Banjoman]

Rifles got around to places that weren't within the makers' primary market. I know of at least 3 Hawkens (including one rather nice one) with provenance of having been taken "back east" as souvenirs of someone's time in the west. There are two in a collection in Scotland: one purchased by the father for a trip west, the other by his son when he went to California in the late 1850s.

Several Hawkens were collected in Illinois, one in Alabama, one in the northern coastal states (sorry, can't recall where). Unfortunately, there is little provenance on these rifles.

My guess has always been, and I may have read it once upon a time, that their primary market was the western movement.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Hawken brothers and the shop owners after them built several styles of rifles along with a line of shotguns. In addition to the plains rifles there were rifles of similar architecture but of smaller caliber for the California market. The squirrel rifles of 32 to 45 were built on scaled down architecture with brass hardware. Some of the smaller caliber rifles were built for the target shooters. The smaller caliber rifles with the brass hardware do look somewhat similar to the rifles built by T/C. T/C shortened the barrels and used 45 and 50 caliber bores for their "Hawkens".

Members of the Gemmer Muzzleloading Gun Club are aware of one Hawken sold to an officer stationed at Jefferson Barracks that bought a Plains Rifle just before the start of our Civil War. He took it with him east when he returned to Virginia to serve the Confederacy. Don Stith owned it for a time having bought it from the heirs still in its cloth sack.

 

[reddogge]

I recently posted in another thread several pictures I took in 1980 of a rifle Christian Hawken built in Hagerstown, MD.

 

[Kabulrocks]

Hawken rifles were supposed to be used on western big game , and carried on horse back until needed. There were so many places in the East making half stock rifles post 1800 , like Pgh. , Pa. , and a host of other gun making centers down along the Ohio River , there was no reason to buy a Hawken rifle in the East. In the 1960's , and early 1970's , many antique dealers still were buying and selling original antique half stock m/l rifles. When these Eastern made rifles were first made , they would have been in competition with Hawken , and were better suited for Eastern game and shooting matches of the day. Many of the Eastern rifles were left over due to the advent of cartridge rifles. I restored a few of these guns kept as family heirlooms. Never saw a Hawken rifle except in pictures. Did read an obscure article in the early 1970's stating that T/Center rifles were actually heavily influenced from a school of rifle builders in New York State. My hunting /shooting buddy got an early T/C rifle in 1971 to use in the Pa. late Flintlock deer season , and was told the same thing , that the rifle from T/C was actually a copy of a rifle made in NY State , just before ctg. rifles came on post American Civil War. Hope this helps , rather than confuses. In the M/L story , there always seems to be more to the story. Gotta just keep digging through the old info.

I am not familiar with the 1970s article that you mentioned, but this is a display at the JM Davis museum in Claremore, OK.

 

[oldwood]

In 1970 , I was fresh out of Engineering tech school with zero $'s to my name , and little prospect of having any extra $$'s for quite a while due to moving from Pgh. to Central Pa. , for a new work assignment. New RN Grad wife and I , did a "sweat equity " house build which further set my m/l gun desires back. One thing I had sticking in my craw was , I wanted a m/l rifle , and couldn't afford the ones in the Penney's Dept. Store sporting goods section , and the original ones in the antique store were $200 each. Out of my reach. Dug through the Dixie Gun Works catalog , found a blue print of a Hawken style rifle. Started ordering a part at a time from Dixie Gun Works. This is when , in doing research for the Dixie Hawken rifle , I read an article in an early , half inch thick , Gun Digest publication , about the T/C " New York Rifle" connection. As an addendum to this story , I did finish the new Dixie "Hawken" rifle , as per specs. in the Dixie blueprint. It was a classic Hawken style .58 cal. plains rifle , and w/o a horse , even though I was young and strong , just couldn't use a 12 lb. + m/l rifle so sold it for what I had in it.

 

[Kabulrocks]

In 1970 , I was fresh out of Engineering tech school with zero $'s to my name , and little prospect of having any extra $$'s for quite a while due to moving from Pgh. to Central Pa. , for a new work assignment. New RN Grad wife and I , did a "sweat equity " house build which further set my m/l gun desires back. One thing I had sticking in my craw was , I wanted a m/l rifle , and couldn't afford the ones in the Penney's Dept. Store sporting goods section , and the original ones in the antique store were $200 each. Out of my reach. Dug through the Dixie Gun Works catalog , found a blue print of a Hawken style rifle. Started ordering a part at a time from Dixie Gun Works. This is when , in doing research for the Dixie Hawken rifle , I read an article in an early , half inch thick , Gun Digest publication , about the T/C " New York Rifle" connection. As an addendum to this story , I did finish the new Dixie "Hawken" rifle , as per specs. in the Dixie blueprint. It was a classic Hawken style .58 cal. plains rifle , and w/o a horse , even though I was young and strong , just couldn't use a 12 lb. + m/l rifle so sold it for what I had in it.

The Davis museum has a very nice research library, I will see if I can find the article that you are referring to.

 

[Dale Lilly]

I have no knowledge of plains style rifles in the East. However, I do have an opinion [for whatever that's worth] about the subject. Many military rifle were used, abused and relegated to the barn. Many of those were large caliber rifles intended to wound/kill men. Certainly, many of those fell into the hands of farmers, hunters, etc. who modified, repaired, used the parts for heavier home protection; bears and bison. Then came the westward movement of trappers and explorers who needed better weapons. Just my best guess. Polecat

 

[Hermit Tim]

I gotta say this was a thought provoking thread. Now that you mention it, I think the only half stock muzzleloader I ever saw was on grizzly Adams. Of the not too many people I knew that actually had a muzzleloader, they were all long rifles. Then, as a young adult in the late eighties, I started seeing Hawken-ish rifles at Walmart. Never thought about eastern half stocks until you brought it up.

 

[oldwood]

One of the original South Western Pa. muzzleloader rifles I got to work on for one of my Dad's coworkers , was a heavy barrel half stock , supposed target rifle , with a supposed lock defect. Actual problem was lock parts rubbing wood in the lock mortice. Fixed the problem , and kept the rifle for a day or two until my Dad could return it to it's owner. Description as follows........Birdseye maple wood. 33 inch barrel with under rib., .40 cal. , double set triggers , brass tg. , r/r thimbles , and butt plate. The stain was deep red on the wood. I think it had been stained with a plant called blood root. I asked around and a friend said he had heard of this old time stain , and we went to a few places on a farm looking for the plant , and found it. Break the plant stem , and bloody sap came out. I did see a longrifle with the same color , but was too young to be interested in a red colored m/l relic. Perhaps one day , I'll stain a rifle with red color alcohol pigment stain. It must have been popular among later m/l gunsmiths in the SW Pa. region south of Pgh. Pa. .

 

[Hermit Tim]

So I was thinking about this thread today while playing with my CVA .36 squirrel rifle. I am by no means an expert on muzzleloader history. Or anything else really. But I do know that the original half stock rifles heading west were purpose built for the new territory and game Frontiersmen would be facing. They were larger calibers than what folks back east would have been using and, from what I understand, they were quite heavy. I would imagine that was because they wanted them to be rugged enough for what they would be used for. I might be wrong about that. That's just what I assumed.

Back east folks tended to use smaller caliber and lighter rifles so, had the Hawken brothers, and other half stock makers, had been targeting the eastern mountain range and wilderness, I believe rifles in our part of the world, Tennessee, would have been made a bit lighter and of the small calibers. So, had the Hawken brothers settled in Fort Nashboro, those famous original Hawken rifles might have been more along the lines of .32, .36, and maybe .45. I've never weighed my little .36 Hawken-ish rifle but it weighs next to nothing and is super easy to carry all day. Don't know what all kinds of big game they had around here 200 years ago but, based on what we have here now, a .36 would kill anything you'd want to hunt. And, while I do not and have no plans to do it, my little .36 is deer legal here. So I think the smaller calibers would have been more prevalent had Hawken went east.

 

[Banjoman]

So I was thinking about this thread today while playing with my CVA .36 squirrel rifle. I am by no means an expert on muzzleloader history. Or anything else really. But I do know that the original half stock rifles heading west were purpose built for the new territory and game Frontiersmen would be facing. They were larger calibers than what folks back east would have been using and, from what I understand, they were quite heavy. I would imagine that was because they wanted them to be rugged enough for what they would be used for. I might be wrong about that. That's just what I assumed.

Back east folks tended to use smaller caliber and lighter rifles so, had the Hawken brothers, and other half stock makers, had been targeting the eastern mountain range and wilderness, I believe rifles in our part of the world, Tennessee, would have been made a bit lighter and of the small calibers. So, had the Hawken brothers settled in Fort Nashboro, those famous original Hawken rifles might have been more along the lines of .32, .36, and maybe .45. I've never weighed my little .36 Hawken-ish rifle but it weighs next to nothing and is super easy to carry all day. Don't know what all kinds of big game they had around here 200 years ago but, based on what we have here now, a .36 would kill anything you'd want to hunt. And, while I do not and have no plans to do it, my little .36 is deer legal here. So I think the smaller calibers would have been more prevalent had Hawken went east.

Thanks! That makes sense.

 

[ETipp]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...d5bd90d45bc6fc324c390e27ba7de0f3&action=click

 

[Banjoman]

Phil said all that needs to be said on this subject.

Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Banjoman]

I gotta say this was a thought provoking thread. Now that you mention it, I think the only half stock muzzleloader I ever saw was on grizzly Adams. Of the not too many people I knew that actually had a muzzleloader, they were all long rifles. Then, as a young adult in the late eighties, I started seeing Hawken-ish rifles at Walmart. Never thought about eastern half stocks until you brought it up.

That’s been my experience also.

 

[ETipp]

Here is Ethan's input with an original Hawken.


https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=033b67b863954f6ea8b639efe6d4b408&action=view