Heavy barrel flintlock. Attempting to ID

[Jubylives]

Hi. New here. Also new to flintlocks. Have worked on percussion shotguns tho. Picked this up at a gun show for a project to keep me out of the wife's hair. Needing to get a trigger guard, side plat and butt plate but can not figure out what it is I have to even start looking. Only markings is a P with a space then BET. Other side has a R. Only markings on barrel. Lock is a T. POTTS london. It appears to possibly be a kit that was not finished. Barrel is held in the stock by nails. Barrel is 43.5 inches long and weighs 11 pounds. Appears heavy barrel .50. Overall gun is 56 inches long. Any help is appreciated. Jeremy

 

[Rudyard]

The rest I've no idea . But the lock is a Bakers Series East India Company pattern lock presumabley Potts is as in Potts & Hunt known contractors . Yours isn't for the E. I .Coy but a' Commercial' (Private sale) lock and very nice it looks . Bakers series adopted in 1818 used until adoption of percussion . How it got to the US ? perhaps Bannerman s purchase's of old arms . Nice lock how long is it ? .The companys ranged from large musket , smaller Carbine & fusil then smaller pistol size . I'me looking for a Carbine size might have a more suitable US style lock If prefering a Companys Lion 'Rampant /Regard holding a crown '. hope that helps
Rudyard

 

[Jubylives]

Thanks for the reply and info. Lock is a smidge under 6 inches long. About the same length as the percussions i have worked on excep the spacing for the mountin bolts. 4 inches which is much larger then the others i have.. No rust on it at all but it won't stay in full cock well at all. I drive a truck over the road so I will be working on it over the week. The screw holding the cock on is new to me. How do take it off with that pin in the middle? Do I need to modify a screw driver? Also any clue as to what style the stock is? Having a hard time e deciding what butt plate and trigger guard to look for? Again appreciate the help. Jeremy

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Jeremy The BUN nut is a feature of Bakers series locks considered a stronger plan . as is the greater length between the 'side nail' holes this was to lessen the possible damage from the breach plus hitting the rear side nail (Bolt some call it ) but Potts wouldn't. If you file a central slot in a common screw driver it will fit the male screw (Tumbler Pin he would call it me too) Sounds like you have similar percussion guns ? . The stocking is so unusual its anyone's guess what it might have been intended to have poor boy shimmel so whatever you fancy or have to hand would do .While the lock will work fine its miles away in from any US style . Just under 6" would be carbine or Fusil maybe Baker rifle but Commercial so any ones guess if their should be a detent that would be a rifle, but it all depended on what the customer asked for. Hope that helps . Rudyard

PS it occerrs to me that the extreme croodaty of the stock finishing could be deliberate the setting of the lock & the two rod pipes ( The rear one allways a pain to inlett !.) Suggests the stocker didn't lack skill. Definatly an odd ball my guess then is its for Chunk gunners they like such an unusual stance one famous chunk gun had the forging scales left on the barrel deliberatly so. They like a sort of deliberate' reverse vanity ' as I call it . long heavy barrel that fits suggest you try "Is this a chunk gun?' post they are a tight group good fun group one might regognise it The proportions & lock aprons suggest the maker was more capable . Rudyard

 

[Jubylives]

Thanks for the reply and insight. I know enough about percussion to be dangerous but am still learning.
I did a Google search on chunk guns. Thanks for that bit of info. Might just be what this is for. I like the idea as I'm drawn to odd stuff. I am worried the stock would take recoil as there's only the tang screw and what appears to be aluminum nails under the barrel holding it in place. Plus the wood is pretty thin. May try and come up with barrel bands if possible. Good stuff. Really appreciate the input. Jeremy

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Jeremy. Much doubt pins are aluminium even if they where you could use replaced nails so cant see brl jumping out any .Then seems unlikley that the stock is so frail that shooting it would harm it any unless its balsa wood (Nice & light but seldom going on never used for stocks !) Tang 'nail.' might just be a temppory wood screw should hold ,but you will need a trigger . If your struggling with percussion you might consider putting a percussion lock in . .Plenty inc me be happy to have the disgarded Potts lock . . The rifle just seems abandoned unfinished if like I speculate it was planned to BE ugly. Like I say Chunk gunners have a great sense of humour .
Rudyard

 

[Jubylives]

I intend to keep it together and finish what was started. I like it a lot. There's an appeal to having a gun you can barely shoulder. I just need to learn more as another reason I bought it. Is different from the percussion firearms I've worked with. One odd part is the lack of a way to secure the trigger to the stock. I may drill a hole and screw it in.

 

[oldwood]

This project begs to be finished into a back woods Appalachian rifle , possibly made by some black smith. Many of these early rifles had thick barrels , plain wood stocks from blanks cut on a pit saw. Locks made by the smith , or imported for saving time in assembly. Head end of a square cut nail for a butt plate in the end of the comb ,etc etc. .................oldwood

 

[Rudyard]

Just dig out a slot suffice to hang a trigger on a pin the guard you can make do with a strip of iron but they sell many sorts of trigger & guards . a trigger plate is nice to screw into but a square washer like block would serve. We are talking deliberate UgLee here or seem to be .

Iron spike for a butt plate ! ?' " Luxury"' ! We used to dream of such refinements !! . ( Thank you & good night Monty Python! )
Cheers Rudyard

 

[oldwood]

Ooooohh , Just one more requirement , perhaps one muzzle end salvage sheet copper r/r thimble . Everybody would see an obvious omission when the rod would keep falling onto the ground..........oldwood

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Rudyard is spot on when he describes the rifles used for chunk gun or table shooting. Beauty of appearance was the least of the design concerns. The first concern was a barrel that could keep a cloverleaf group or smaller at 65 yards from a rest. That requirement generally led to a heavy 1" to 1 1/4" across the flats barrel of 44" length and 36 to 40 caliber bore. Next was a lock that would reliably send the ball on its path to the target. Then it needed sights to see the target. Finally it needed some wood to hold the parts in proper relation to each other and would rest securely on the chunk of wood or rest on the table. As has been noted, some of these rifles could be readily identified as being used for a long period of time by the number of dovetails in the barrel as the sights moved as the shooter's eyes aged and the focal distance changed. Some have under barrel lugs moved as burned out breech sections were cut off and the barrel set back.

It has been rumored that an especially accurate rifle was considered as part of the dowry to improve the chances of getting a suitable husband for one's daughter.

 

[Rudyard]

Thank you Grenadier. You certainly understand the Chunk gunner mind set. Not that I have attended more than the one shoot I wrote about, but it was a memorable occasion .. I sort of like to think outside of the box & have a wide interest in all sorts of ML guns beyound the normal modern factory offerings. I am currently making a matchlock Petronel . Cant see it being suited to Chunk or any other aspect of our sport . Would be a Great Hockey stick, but I don't play hockey . But on a range shoot it would be more fun than a bag of rats , Once I figure out how they are supposed to be held they are supposedly meant to be fired butt against the chest from which their name is derived but how it can really be held & fired is debatable ..It will still be an' Example' & you don't see many . I don't think Cabelas stock them. (Not that I've ever seen such a shop ). .Reminds me of Karl Marks and I once engraved on the under side of one M lock ." Matchlock shooters of the world ignite !' ' You have nothing to lose but your brains "!! .(The customer was a Union Rep). Not that I'me Marks ist ,quite the contrary. But I did camp in Highgate cemetery one night for want of better so you could say I spent a night with Karl Marks & Mary Kingsley since their buried there.( Mary Kingsley was a Victorian Solo traveller through West Africa and had many adventures . real' Scukum' (Game) Lady late 19th c However I digress .
Regards Rudyard

 

[JCKelly]

Betcha it is an unfinished British Trade Gun.
About which I know close to nothing
I do suspect that any work you do on it will make this rifle of Zero interest to such Trade Gun collectors as may be around.

See if some other collectors' site will recognize it.

Specifically, try www.vikingsword.com It it might take two weeks (it did for me) to get accepted. Worth it, no other site contains collectors of such unusual items from all over the globe.

 

[Jubylives]

Well as it sits it is incomplete and I intend to shoot it. Value after completion isn't really a concern of mine. In reality finishing the wood work, stain, sealant, and adding the missing parts i can't imagine ill harm any monetary value. I just think its neat as hell and plan to keep it.

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Mr Kelly. I consider the gun in question has nothing remotely to do with any trade gun offering . Your post on match cord was brilliant. But I believe you'r light years away from indentifying this. It being utterly unlike ANY trade gun ,& I have studied & made quiet a lot of British trade guns, and the 'viking sword' wont help in this case .Sorry to be so condemning . But your own intro rather supports my belief .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cositrike]

Dear Jeremy The BUN nut is a feature of Bakers series locks considered a stronger plan . as is the greater length between the 'side nail' holes this was to lessen the possible damage from the breach plus hitting the rear side nail (Bolt some call it ) but Potts wouldn't. If you file a central slot in a common screw driver it will fit the male screw (Tumbler Pin he would call it me too) Sounds like you have similar percussion guns ? . The stocking is so unusual its anyone's guess what it might have been intended to have poor boy shimmel so whatever you fancy or have to hand would do .While the lock will work fine its miles away in from any US style . Just under 6" would be carbine or Fusil maybe Baker rifle but Commercial so any ones guess if their should be a detent that would be a rifle, but it all depended on what the customer asked for. Hope that helps . Rudyard

PS it occerrs to me that the extreme croodaty of the stock finishing could be deliberate the setting of the lock & the two rod pipes ( The rear one allways a pain to inlett !.) Suggests the stocker didn't lack skill. Definatly an odd ball my guess then is its for Chunk gunners they like such an unusual stance one famous chunk gun had the forging scales left on the barrel deliberatly so. They like a sort of deliberate' reverse vanity ' as I call it . long heavy barrel that fits suggest you try "Is this a chunk gun?' post they are a tight group good fun group one might regognise it The proportions & lock aprons suggest the maker was more capable . Rudyard

Rudyard, maybe the long lever type trigger, like Lizard had on old rustaway, would be suitable. A bit like a crossbow lever. Simon

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Simon. in short yes the lever idea might float but no idea if related to this gun. Brer Lizard did have the lever idea , I thought that rifle was dubbed ' Queen Ester ' could have had a name change ?. I never looked for logic with Lizard .
Regards Rudyard

 

[cositrike]

Dear Simon. in short yes the lever idea might float but no idea if related to this gun. Brer Lizard did have the lever idea , I thought that rifle was dubbed ' Queen Ester ' could have had a name change ?. I never looked for logic with Lizard .
Regards Rudyard

No. You are absolutely right Rudyard. It was Queen Ester. Old rustaway, was another one, thank you for that. Regards Simon

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Simon Your quite welcome Pobodies nerfect !
Cheers R

 

[vintovka]

Something about it seems familiar. Maybe in an old catalog like from Robert Abels back in the day???