Heavy Conicals in 1858 Pietta

[Capnballhunter]

Anyone have experience using hand cast conicals from the Lee molds. Trying to choose between the .456 220 grain and the .450 200 grain. Will be for my steel frame Pietta 5.5 inch 1858. I think the .456 would be a tighter fit and a better choice. Anyone ever use these? Have any chrono data or hunting experiences? Thanks folks

 

[hawkeye2]

The .450" will be too small for the bore and most likely for the cylinder too. I tried the .456" Lee revolver bullets in a Uberti that shot round balls fine. The group at 25 yards doubled in size. The twist was slow for a pistol and far too slow for a bullet. I had similar results shooting a 250 grain slug from my EOA Remington.

 

[Capnballhunter]

Interesting, thanks for the input. Guess each revolver is that much different. In this video he seems to get very good results with the 200 grain Lee slug shooting an 8 inch Pietta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0MUpBA6JHo&feature=youtu.be&t=4m59s

 

[Patocazador]

I tried to get an accurate load with conicals in my Ruger Old Army. The 220s were all over the place but the 255 FN semi-wadcutter one gave fair groups with 30 gr. of 3FG. I killed a deer with this load but groups were 3"-4+" at 35 yards.
Round balls are the most accurate with ~ 20-25 gr. of 3FG.

Your cylinder's chamber depth is probably less so experimentation is necessary.

 

[Capnballhunter]

I've always used .454 lead balls in my 1858s with great accuracy and knockdown power. Lately seems like everyone is using conicals and I'm big into Civil War history.

These revolvers would have been issued with boxes of paper cartridges containing a fine powder specific to revolver use and a conical in the 200 to 250 grain range. 216 grain pointed slugs with one groove for lube were often produced and powder charges where from under 20 grains to over 30.

This mysterious "revolver powder" mentioned in Civil War munitions logs and purchase orders from arms makers must have been a very fine granulation perhaps somewhere between our fffg and ffffg.
We may never know really but it produced excellent results on the field of battle with charges of 18-25 grains beneath a 200+ grain peice of lead...one can only assume it was hot stuff and effecient to burn.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I cast rb and slugs for my c&b revolvers (and caplocks)
the slug is around .456-458 dia.
I use as pure lead I can find - thumbnail scratch soft.

 

[nkbj]

Anyone have experience using hand cast conicals from the Lee molds. Trying to choose between the .456 220 grain and the .450 200 grain. Will be for my steel frame Pietta 5.5 inch 1858. I think the .456 would be a tighter fit and a better choice. Anyone ever use these? Have any chrono data or hunting experiences? Thanks folks

Hey there.
Have you miked the chambers yet? The Piettas seem to vary a bit from one time to another. My Pietta 1858 .44 has chamber mouths at 0.446" and the reamer wasn't straight sided. If a bullet is loaded without having a step down on the hind end then it's hit or miss on getting a bullet to load straight without getting all catty wampus. I'd thought about getting a .444 diameter sizer for it to use with .45 molds but just haven't because the length on .45 designs will put the bullet base into the smaller diameter taper in the chambers. And, the nose designs on .45 molds generally represent quite a loss of powder space for .44 percussion revolvers smaller than dragoons. I've been tempted to have a round ball mold altered for .44 like this one for .36. Would use a .451" ball with a .443" cylindrical tail diameter.

 

[mhb]

Cap...
Actually, there is currently a book available which touches on precisely this subject:
'Civil War Revolvers - Myth vs. Reality', by Peter Schiffers.
He also authored a similar book on Civil War carbines. He is a European, but put a lot of work into his research.
His finding is that CW revolver cartridges were loaded (by Government standard) with musket powder (!). The exception was cartridges made by Colt, but they were a very small percentage of cartridges bought during the war - they were loaded with a much finer powder between 3 and 4F, IIRC.
It is an interesting book, but I have some problems with his methodology. The ballistics developed by the loads he used in his testing were, to put it kindly, pathetic, with few exceptions. For example, his load for the .44 Colt Army was exceeded in muzzle energy by the .32 S&W Long RF (really!).
An interesting book, but it leaves one wondering how the CW soldier ever accomplished anything useful with a revolver...

mhb - Mike

 

[Capnballhunter]

Anyone have experience using hand cast conicals from the Lee molds. Trying to choose between the .456 220 grain and the .450 200 grain. Will be for my steel frame Pietta 5.5 inch 1858. I think the .456 would be a tighter fit and a better choice. Anyone ever use these? Have any chrono data or hunting experiences? Thanks folks

Hey there.
Have you miked the chambers yet? The Piettas seem to vary a bit from one time to another. My Pietta 1858 .44 has chamber mouths at 0.446" and the reamer wasn't straight sided. If a bullet is loaded without having a step down on the hind end then it's hit or miss on getting a bullet to load straight without getting all catty wampus. I'd thought about getting a .444 diameter sizer for it to use with .45 molds but just haven't because the length on .45 designs will put the bullet base into the smaller diameter taper in the chambers. And, the nose designs on .45 molds generally represent quite a loss of powder space for .44 percussion revolvers smaller than dragoons. I've been tempted to have a round ball mold altered for .44 like this one for .36. Would use a .451" ball with a .443" cylindrical tail diameter.

I've been tempted to try and design my own mold as well, starting with an aluminum rb mold.

I haven't measured my chambers but they cut a nice ring when seating a .454 ball so that is my point of reference.

I've pounded my own .454 wadcutters from 180 grain .490 balls. They shot surprisingly well with 28 grains fffg but the heating, rolling and sizing to produce them is very time consuming.

 

[rodwha]

I have read another's research on CW cartridges, and his findings with the ones made with Hazards Pistol Powder was akin to 4F Swiss.

He gave permission to pass it along. It's quite lengthy and would require an email. I have 3 pieces of work from him that I saved.

I had Accurate Mold make me a few designs that were .456" in diameter, and in my Pietta 1858 it's a bit tight and shaves a big ring. My chambers are ~.446". The 170 and 195 grn bullets are short (.400" and .460") and work fairly well. I need to do a more formal test for accuracy against RB's though. My conicals are WFN and not historically correct though.

 

[Capnballhunter]

I have read another's research on CW cartridges, and his findings with the ones made with Hazards Pistol Powder was akin to 4F Swiss.

He gave permission to pass it along. It's quite lengthy and would require an email. I have 3 pieces of work from him that I saved.

I had Accurate Mold make me a few designs that were .456" in diameter, and in my Pietta 1858 it's a bit tight and shaves a big ring. My chambers are ~.446". The 170 and 195 grn bullets are short (.400" and .460") and work fairly well. I need to do a more formal test for accuracy against RB's though. My conicals are WFN and not historically correct though.

I would be very interested in the research on Hazards Pistol Powder.....can you send the work to me if I provide you with my contact info. This is a very interesting topic to me..

 

[rodwha]

Indeed I would. I have 3 pieces of his work, and it's been some time now since I've read them so I'll just send all 3. It's interesting anyway.

 

[mhb]

Hazard's powder was that used in the Colt cartridges. However, Mr. Schiffers was undoubtedly right that such cartridges were only a tiny fraction of those obtained, issued and used in the CW, and, if his contention that musket powder was prescribed (and used) in the great bulk of cartridges loaded by other contractors and the various arsenals is correct (and I do not doubt that it is), it puts a very interesting light on the probable effectiveness of the various revolvers then in use.

mhb - Mike

 

[Capnballhunter]

Interesting point mhb...

 

[Capnballhunter]

Indeed I would. I have 3 pieces of his work, and it's been some time now since I've read them so I'll just send all 3. It's interesting anyway.

Great reading material. Thanks for the email. :grin:

 

[rodwha]

You bet!

Do you happen to have anything about CW powders/cartridges?

 

[Capnballhunter]

You bet!

Do you happen to have anything about CW powders/cartridges?

I don't. I've only gleaned a certain amount of information from internet research and documentary films about the era..

 

[Zonie]

There's already a topic about paper cartridges in the forum and just to head off discussions about metallic cartridges, we don't discuss them here, Civil war or otherwise.

 

[swathdiver]

Anyone have experience using hand cast conicals from the Lee molds. Trying to choose between the .456 220 grain and the .450 200 grain. Will be for my steel frame Pietta 5.5 inch 1858.

When was your revolver made? Look for the two letters inside the square on the frame.

Those Lee conicals are for punching paper, not killing animals. If you want to hunt and put down game with one shot, you need the Kaido conicals, the 240 grain bullet will make full caliber holes in hogs and do massive internal damage.

They are currently available in 6-cavity molds made by Lee. But you have to contact Kaido Ojamma to get them.

 

[Capnballhunter]

Anyone have experience using hand cast conicals from the Lee molds. Trying to choose between the .456 220 grain and the .450 200 grain. Will be for my steel frame Pietta 5.5 inch 1858.

When was your revolver made? Look for the two letters inside the square on the frame.

Those Lee conicals are for punching paper, not killing animals. If you want to hunt and put down game with one shot, you need the Kaido conicals, the 240 grain bullet will make full caliber holes in hogs and do massive internal damage.

They are currently available in 6-cavity molds made by Lee. But you have to contact Kaido Ojamma to get them.

Yeah I've heard the hype on the Kaido bullets and watched the vids. I'm gonna go with Lee products for now. As for the year this one was made. Its a "CL" marked revolver and it was bought about six months ago or so brand new at Cabelas. Very good quality, my only gripe is that the hammer won't fit fully into the safety notches, this is common on these I've read. Fit and finish are superb and she eats 40 grain charges for breakfast