appalichian hunter
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TFoley, I thank you for the explanation as I worried about safety issues. As far as I consider this issue is now mute. Back to the real black powder shooting.
Hello from the UK
- Thread starter Marcus Ades
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Yes.
We don't talk about modern firearms or nitro powder on our forum.
This is a Traditional muzzleloading forum and we limit our discussions to the firearms and technology that existed prior to 1866 here.
There are a few exceptions to this, but beyond telling people that nitro powder is unsafe to use in a muzzleloading traditional muzzleloading firearm we don't get into deeper discussions about it.
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Sir,
I think it is a shame that an aside re the use of smokeless powder which any of us in the UK wishing to shoot M L Revolvers on an indoor range are obliged to use, is deleted from a very interesting forum..
I have been a member of the MLAGB for many years and shoot an early Parker Hale built .451" 2 band Volunteer RIFLE, which came with its original mould, sizing die and Parker Hale instruction Manual from their Birmingham factory
In order to use Black Powder in the UK one is obliged to have not only a permit to keep Black Powder,
in a specified design of lockable box. but in addition a permit to transport Black Powder. The nearest range I can shoot BP in the .451 is 100 miles each way, but I can use my M.L. Revolvers (A Ruger Old Army and a Uberti Remington .44 New Model army) at my local club indoor range, because they are converted and proofed to use smokeless and shotgun primers.
Surely the title "Muzzle Loading Forum" (No brackets BLACK POWDER ONLY) could allow the considerable number of us in the UK to join the forum and be allowed to discuss and promote this particular aspect of muzzle loading.
The' Muzzle Loading Association of Great Britain' publishes a quarterly magazine and the society has its own dedicated range at Wedgnock. (unfortunately a very long way away ), and no distinction is made or implied as to the propellant provided the guns in question are suitably proofed. and are true Muzzle Loaders
With your exceedingly liberal gun laws in the US you are fortunate, I suspect that, since cartridge handguns were removed from all but the criminal classes, there are as many, if not more, M.L handgun shooters in the UK than M L long guns..
As shooter of both for many years, (I converted and had proved my Ruger Old Army to smokeless long before such revolvers became commercially available in the UK) I respectfully request that a forum as interesting and informative as this should not exclude a sizeable pool of muzzle loading enthusiasts.
Respectfully
steamjohn
I think it is a shame that an aside re the use of smokeless powder which any of us in the UK wishing to shoot M L Revolvers on an indoor range are obliged to use, is deleted from a very interesting forum..
I have been a member of the MLAGB for many years and shoot an early Parker Hale built .451" 2 band Volunteer RIFLE, which came with its original mould, sizing die and Parker Hale instruction Manual from their Birmingham factory
In order to use Black Powder in the UK one is obliged to have not only a permit to keep Black Powder,
in a specified design of lockable box. but in addition a permit to transport Black Powder. The nearest range I can shoot BP in the .451 is 100 miles each way, but I can use my M.L. Revolvers (A Ruger Old Army and a Uberti Remington .44 New Model army) at my local club indoor range, because they are converted and proofed to use smokeless and shotgun primers.
Surely the title "Muzzle Loading Forum" (No brackets BLACK POWDER ONLY) could allow the considerable number of us in the UK to join the forum and be allowed to discuss and promote this particular aspect of muzzle loading.
The' Muzzle Loading Association of Great Britain' publishes a quarterly magazine and the society has its own dedicated range at Wedgnock. (unfortunately a very long way away ), and no distinction is made or implied as to the propellant provided the guns in question are suitably proofed. and are true Muzzle Loaders
With your exceedingly liberal gun laws in the US you are fortunate, I suspect that, since cartridge handguns were removed from all but the criminal classes, there are as many, if not more, M.L handgun shooters in the UK than M L long guns..
As shooter of both for many years, (I converted and had proved my Ruger Old Army to smokeless long before such revolvers became commercially available in the UK) I respectfully request that a forum as interesting and informative as this should not exclude a sizeable pool of muzzle loading enthusiasts.
Respectfully
steamjohn
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I have ticked a' like' despite my knowing nothing of such loadings until these last days . Not that I support or use nitro. But because steamjohn has a valid point in his unfortunate position. I am not into nitro or duplex loads but then I nor most of our readers have his problem.
Respectfully Rudyard
Respectfully Rudyard
appalichian hunter
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Looks like we ticked off the boys across the pond, we know how that worked out in the past, (Just kidding) Times change and issues change, perhaps it is time to add a new section where folks can discuss issues such as this with in reason. I feel it would enhance knowledge, ideals and experiences from others less fortunate with there endeavor's. And lets be realistic with the current climate brewing in the U.S.A. we may very well find ourselves in the same boat. Shared knowledge may very well be beneficial to all of us, in the days ahead.
I disagree, this is a traditional site, we shouldn't have to change our rules just because they have problems. There are plenty of other sites that discuss what they want. Why do us traditionalists always have to do the changing? I have nothing against the British people, just their government.
appalichian hunter
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I see your point but if what you say about a traditional site we would not discuss the Thompson center, plastic stocks chrome lined bores, systems to change the ignition process from regular percussion caps to #209 shot shell primers, and such made weapons, yes these are muzzle loaders loosely based (very loosely based) on originals, no I am not putting anyone down who chooses to use such weapons, there might even be one or two in my stable. it was even stated that the early sharps rifles used paper cartridges with a musket cap, but could be loaded like a regular muzzle loader I have never seen a reference to this manner of loading such a rifle If this was the case they would of came with ram rods specifically for that purpose, just saying. If they can be discussed why not the early in-lines that uses a percussion cap it falls in the same category as the Sharps statement, except it has a closed breech. Our rules are changing right before our very eyes in this country now. It was just a observation of perhaps there is a lesson to be learned from those shooters who have been lets say castrated by there own policies. Lessons to be learnt here. It is not just the British shooters who are thinking out side the box in order to keep shooting these weapons. Traditionalist or not we all have a dog in this fight. I like and prefer the traditional weapons but push come to shove I would not hesitate to go with the other ones, and we better do all we can to protect all involved in the shooting crafts traditional or traditional with a twist. Just a observation nothing personal, SAM
This forum is primarily concerned with things that happened prior to 1866.
As smokeless powder was not invented prior to that year it and the guns that shoot it are off limits for discussion here.
I'm sure there are forums in your area which allow the discussion of smokeless powder in pre 1866 firearms so I suggest you talk about it using those forums. Just don't do it here. How can I make that clearer?
jimhallam
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Dear Zonie
I realise how strongly you feel - and I respect that -- - and I surmise that your ideas control the ethos of this forum (which in all other respects is excellent). You are very fortunate that you haven't been treated the way that WE have in the UK -- being pawns in a political game caused thousands of us to lose part of our tradition.
My own principal Club (the South London Rifle Club) was founded in 1874. Our "Revolver Section" was founded on 13th April 1886 -- and after Dunblane our last meeting using revolvers (and pistols) was on 13th April 1997. Because of the stringent rules about the acquisition, storage and carriage of BP many people are unable or unwilling to apply for an Explosives Certificate. (In many areas of public housing the Council bans it comletely).
I have just received the 11-page form from the Surrey Police to renew mine. Many Clubs cannot use BP. Even BP substitutes (such as Pyrodex, Black Canyou, Triple 7) create problems with Insurance - especially if the repro Remington is stamped "Black Powder only" on the barrel. That's why we have developed systems to try to keep shooting the older firearms and also to keep the use of "handguns" going.
I really can't see WHY you take the stance that you do. "Appalichian Hunter" makes an excellent point about the changes in society / attitudes. Surely we should be prepared for possibilities. (I recall that in MD some years ago there was a move to cancel the pre-1899 concept bcause someone used a repro ML revolver in a crime).
I am not a fan of "inline systems" which were produced by the American Gun Trade to sell more -- and what many consider "loopholes" in the hunting seasons. However, that is a FACT now -- and I believe that we should seek to educate people into our REAL traditions and shoving them away without showing them our way seems short-sighted.
When I wrote the Historic Arms R&Rs for the SLRC -- which became the basis for the NRA (UK) Rules -- I included a requirement that ORIGINAL BP firearms had to use BP -- but I had to recognise that if I insisted on that for ALL MLs (and the early Breechloaders -- Sniders, Trapdoors ... ...) that it would decimate the entry to Matches.
I can't see WHY you could not have just ONE forum topic on the subject--- clearly displayed and defined, with any RULES that you might invent -- in the same way that you have Rules for some other Fora [ sorry -- - "Forums" now being the normal plural ;-) ] I realise that you won't -- and I am sad about that, because -- to use a British phrase -- you seem to be "cutting your nose off to spite your face" (nothing personal about YOU - a generalisation about the denial which is common and counter-productive.)
You say.. "I'm sure there are forums in your area which allow the discussion of smokeless powder in pre 1866 firearms so I suggest you talk about it using those forums. Just don't do it here."
I am sad that in the Land of the Free you take that approach -- so I will now shut up about this subject as I know that I am wasting my time, which can be more profitably spent trying to encourage we benighted Brits to keep shooting pistols and revolvers -- under whatever draconian rules that we (as law-abiding citizens) have to do .. .. whilst the criminals run riot. The members of target-shooting clubs in the UK have (as in the USA) an ever-increasing average age -- which means that many of them have been closing down. .. three in my locality in the last 3 months alone.
"Eheu fugaces" ?
I realise how strongly you feel - and I respect that -- - and I surmise that your ideas control the ethos of this forum (which in all other respects is excellent). You are very fortunate that you haven't been treated the way that WE have in the UK -- being pawns in a political game caused thousands of us to lose part of our tradition.
My own principal Club (the South London Rifle Club) was founded in 1874. Our "Revolver Section" was founded on 13th April 1886 -- and after Dunblane our last meeting using revolvers (and pistols) was on 13th April 1997. Because of the stringent rules about the acquisition, storage and carriage of BP many people are unable or unwilling to apply for an Explosives Certificate. (In many areas of public housing the Council bans it comletely).
I have just received the 11-page form from the Surrey Police to renew mine. Many Clubs cannot use BP. Even BP substitutes (such as Pyrodex, Black Canyou, Triple 7) create problems with Insurance - especially if the repro Remington is stamped "Black Powder only" on the barrel. That's why we have developed systems to try to keep shooting the older firearms and also to keep the use of "handguns" going.
I really can't see WHY you take the stance that you do. "Appalichian Hunter" makes an excellent point about the changes in society / attitudes. Surely we should be prepared for possibilities. (I recall that in MD some years ago there was a move to cancel the pre-1899 concept bcause someone used a repro ML revolver in a crime).
I am not a fan of "inline systems" which were produced by the American Gun Trade to sell more -- and what many consider "loopholes" in the hunting seasons. However, that is a FACT now -- and I believe that we should seek to educate people into our REAL traditions and shoving them away without showing them our way seems short-sighted.
When I wrote the Historic Arms R&Rs for the SLRC -- which became the basis for the NRA (UK) Rules -- I included a requirement that ORIGINAL BP firearms had to use BP -- but I had to recognise that if I insisted on that for ALL MLs (and the early Breechloaders -- Sniders, Trapdoors ... ...) that it would decimate the entry to Matches.
I can't see WHY you could not have just ONE forum topic on the subject--- clearly displayed and defined, with any RULES that you might invent -- in the same way that you have Rules for some other Fora [ sorry -- - "Forums" now being the normal plural ;-) ] I realise that you won't -- and I am sad about that, because -- to use a British phrase -- you seem to be "cutting your nose off to spite your face" (nothing personal about YOU - a generalisation about the denial which is common and counter-productive.)
You say.. "I'm sure there are forums in your area which allow the discussion of smokeless powder in pre 1866 firearms so I suggest you talk about it using those forums. Just don't do it here."
I am sad that in the Land of the Free you take that approach -- so I will now shut up about this subject as I know that I am wasting my time, which can be more profitably spent trying to encourage we benighted Brits to keep shooting pistols and revolvers -- under whatever draconian rules that we (as law-abiding citizens) have to do .. .. whilst the criminals run riot. The members of target-shooting clubs in the UK have (as in the USA) an ever-increasing average age -- which means that many of them have been closing down. .. three in my locality in the last 3 months alone.
"Eheu fugaces" ?
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Zonie,
May I say I was surprised and gratified that after your statement at 1051 last Thursday you allowed my comments to see the light of day.
It was also gratifying to receive a few observations in support of my plea, especially the detailed and eloquent input from jimhallam, (admittedly a fellow Brit).
As a subscriber to the "American Single Shot Rifle Association" I was somewhat taken aback by the rigidity of your views as a Moderator of The Muzzleloading Forum but you obviously see that as your mission, in spite of the fact that to a newcomer, the title gives no hint of cut off dates or indeed any Mention of Black Powder.
I shoot a Pedersoli replica 1874 falling block 45/7, . a fine competition winning (not by me), rifle, proofed for both Black and Smokeless propellant. If I wish to shoot at anything beyond 200 Yds on out to 1000 yds at Bisley, I have to shoot with the "SINGLE SHOT BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE CLUB of Great Britain". and shoot Black Powder only
A mouth full sure but at least you know from the start the rules / parameters.
Pedersoli also make some exceedingly fine Percussion and Flintlock Rifles that are NOT proofed for other than Black Powder. Does your forum also forbid any mention or discussion of these guns? since many of your members build their own weapons from 'kits' am I to assume commercially made modern 'replicas' are regarded as eligible for discussion?
Is there perhaps a case for changing your title to include (at least in small print) the words, pre 1866, but including later replicas, Black Powder only
It might save a lot of folks getting upset.
With the greatest respect
John
May I say I was surprised and gratified that after your statement at 1051 last Thursday you allowed my comments to see the light of day.
It was also gratifying to receive a few observations in support of my plea, especially the detailed and eloquent input from jimhallam, (admittedly a fellow Brit).
As a subscriber to the "American Single Shot Rifle Association" I was somewhat taken aback by the rigidity of your views as a Moderator of The Muzzleloading Forum but you obviously see that as your mission, in spite of the fact that to a newcomer, the title gives no hint of cut off dates or indeed any Mention of Black Powder.
I shoot a Pedersoli replica 1874 falling block 45/7, . a fine competition winning (not by me), rifle, proofed for both Black and Smokeless propellant. If I wish to shoot at anything beyond 200 Yds on out to 1000 yds at Bisley, I have to shoot with the "SINGLE SHOT BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE CLUB of Great Britain". and shoot Black Powder only
A mouth full sure but at least you know from the start the rules / parameters.
Pedersoli also make some exceedingly fine Percussion and Flintlock Rifles that are NOT proofed for other than Black Powder. Does your forum also forbid any mention or discussion of these guns? since many of your members build their own weapons from 'kits' am I to assume commercially made modern 'replicas' are regarded as eligible for discussion?
Is there perhaps a case for changing your title to include (at least in small print) the words, pre 1866, but including later replicas, Black Powder only
It might save a lot of folks getting upset.
With the greatest respect
John
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Dear John, and any other Brits who post here, I believe that you and the other Brits here are wasting your time looking for understanding and acceptance of the predicament and difficulties undertaken by M/L shooters in UK. Every single time you, or I, or another Brit attempts to find a way that we can talk about how WE have to shoot, we get a smack in the teeth. There are even reminders from some quarters about the Revolutionary War, over and done back in 1785, but still gets cited as 'Brits getting a bloody nose, yeah, that'll teach 'em'. It's sad that after many years of mostly friendly interaction here, those of us who came here looking for a welcome are being made to be the poor relations - again.
This site was touted by many of my friends in the USA as THE definitive best muzzleloading site in existence, and to be honest, nothing has changed that opinion for me. However, that opinion is tempered with a proviso.
You really need to be an American.
Read the words above from Zonie - 'I'm sure there are forums in your area which allow the discussion of smokeless powder in pre 1866 firearms so I suggest you talk about it using those forums. Just don't do it here. How can I make that clearer?'
Crystal clear, Sir. He really doesn't care about your problems. Go find another forum.
That is what I'm doing.
Good luck.
This site was touted by many of my friends in the USA as THE definitive best muzzleloading site in existence, and to be honest, nothing has changed that opinion for me. However, that opinion is tempered with a proviso.
You really need to be an American.
Read the words above from Zonie - 'I'm sure there are forums in your area which allow the discussion of smokeless powder in pre 1866 firearms so I suggest you talk about it using those forums. Just don't do it here. How can I make that clearer?'
Crystal clear, Sir. He really doesn't care about your problems. Go find another forum.
That is what I'm doing.
Good luck.
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Few are as decidedly non nitro as I am .Ime so traditional purist its scary .BUT I do see the plight of Fellow Brits ,' I voted with my feet' I had' lived in a world' . But settled for New Zealand for its climate & its hunting shooting & fishing availbilitys . We currently suffer a Leftist shower called Government . Shooters are now penalised & demonised because some head case is given a gun liscence by the police without the proper vetting preceedure he shoots up a mosque. So gleefully the rabid Leftist Dictator as is their wont brings in ill thought out knee jerk ' Look Good' anti shooter laws . Sure it was supposed to be about military style semi auto guns but it will no doubt impact all shooting sports & they threw in a raft of other sorts .Like Winchester lever actions .. That's they way they do it little bit here little bit their , lots forms, City council by laws ',Unsafe ranges' that have been safe for Donkeys years . My wifes American Id'e been happy in Ohio but here we are to stay . What Ime saying is No shooters are immune from this Brave New World . Where might you in the US be if the Nancy Pelolis get their way ?
.Oh Political Rudyard but I look at these things .Ive sufferered such rot most of my life ...
Regards Rudyard
.Oh Political Rudyard but I look at these things .Ive sufferered such rot most of my life ...
Regards Rudyard
A few comments and answers to points and questions in the last several posts:
First a couple of the forum's rules pertaining to what we are and what is allowed.
1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)
2: Please remember, this is not a public forum, but rather a privately owned service and as such, you are a guest. It is a family oriented site, so please conduct yourself accordingly. We have members who are children and we do not approve of "sexual innuendos". Please think twice before posting something you think is funny.
7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.
Early historic breech loading guns that do not use primed metallic or semi-metallic cartridges and meet the requirements of rule #1 are permitted for discussion.
See special rules at the bottom for posts about breech loading firearms.
8: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.
9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule.
10: We do not discuss conversion cylinders or anything to do with metal cartridges.
17: We do not discuss Politics outside the Politics forum.
43: The Forum Moderators have the right to edit, censor, delete or otherwise modify any posted information, without notice.
To see all of the forum rules, follow this link
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/forum-rules.108881/
Notice rule number 17. We don't allow discussions about politics in the general areas of the forum. This includes the Second Amendment to the US Constitution and for that matter, in depth discussions about the laws in other countries including the UK and the Eurozone.
I do allow brief descriptions of the various countries outside the US to keep our American members informed but if they get into discussions deeper than what an American could need to know if they lived in those countries I will edit or remove them.
Discussion of these issues can be made in the Premium Member area of the forum however in order to post there you must be a paid MLF Supporter. Notice that because this is a American forum, the political discussions allowed in the Premium Member area are placed in the "American Politics" forum.
Yes, we can and do discuss modern manufactured reproductions of all muzzleloaders and cannons if they represent the guns made prior to 1866.
Some of our members have made comments our United Kingdom members may take offense with. Usually, these are made "tongue in cheek" as a friendly, good natured "ribbing" and are not meant to be confrontational. I suggest overlooking these comments and not taking them personally.
I happen to own a Pedersoli falling block rifle like the one mentioned above. It is a fine gun and I greatly enjoy shooting it and a number of other rifles I own that shoot the same cartridge but because of the forum rules, they, and the cartridge it shoots cannot be talked about or shown on the forum.
The bottom line is, this is a muzzleloading forum dedicated to reenacting and shooting the guns made before 1866. The forum recognizes that people living now have access to synthetic black powders and modern lubricants but as long as these are used like original black powder and the lubricants available to the people living in those days, the forum will allow discussions about them.
Modern reproduction guns that use plastic stocks are allowed to be mentioned but that is only because I recognize these guns styles represent the original guns (ever so poorly) and some of the people beginning their shooting of traditional style firearms have no other choice that is easily available to them.
Simply put, if someone has a Spanish made sidelock rifle with a plastic stock, I will allow it.
If, on the other hand, they have a wood stocked reproduction of a Model 1911 Colt semi-automatic with a flintlock mechanism on it to fire it, I will not allow it on the forum.
This whole discussion is really out of place, here in the "Welcome to the Camp" area so with that said, I am closing the thread.
First a couple of the forum's rules pertaining to what we are and what is allowed.
1: The focus of this site is "Traditional Muzzleloading"; The history of muzzleloading weapons and battles, up to and including the American Civil War. (From the inception of firearms through 1865)
2: Please remember, this is not a public forum, but rather a privately owned service and as such, you are a guest. It is a family oriented site, so please conduct yourself accordingly. We have members who are children and we do not approve of "sexual innuendos". Please think twice before posting something you think is funny.
7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.
Early historic breech loading guns that do not use primed metallic or semi-metallic cartridges and meet the requirements of rule #1 are permitted for discussion.
See special rules at the bottom for posts about breech loading firearms.
8: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.
9: We do not discuss copper and/or jacketed, plastic/polymer tipped bullets, sabots, power belts, or other 'plastic-wrapped' bullets. Smoothbores using plastic wads and steel shot are an exception to this rule.
10: We do not discuss conversion cylinders or anything to do with metal cartridges.
17: We do not discuss Politics outside the Politics forum.
43: The Forum Moderators have the right to edit, censor, delete or otherwise modify any posted information, without notice.
To see all of the forum rules, follow this link
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/forum-rules.108881/
Notice rule number 17. We don't allow discussions about politics in the general areas of the forum. This includes the Second Amendment to the US Constitution and for that matter, in depth discussions about the laws in other countries including the UK and the Eurozone.
I do allow brief descriptions of the various countries outside the US to keep our American members informed but if they get into discussions deeper than what an American could need to know if they lived in those countries I will edit or remove them.
Discussion of these issues can be made in the Premium Member area of the forum however in order to post there you must be a paid MLF Supporter. Notice that because this is a American forum, the political discussions allowed in the Premium Member area are placed in the "American Politics" forum.
Yes, we can and do discuss modern manufactured reproductions of all muzzleloaders and cannons if they represent the guns made prior to 1866.
Some of our members have made comments our United Kingdom members may take offense with. Usually, these are made "tongue in cheek" as a friendly, good natured "ribbing" and are not meant to be confrontational. I suggest overlooking these comments and not taking them personally.
I happen to own a Pedersoli falling block rifle like the one mentioned above. It is a fine gun and I greatly enjoy shooting it and a number of other rifles I own that shoot the same cartridge but because of the forum rules, they, and the cartridge it shoots cannot be talked about or shown on the forum.
The bottom line is, this is a muzzleloading forum dedicated to reenacting and shooting the guns made before 1866. The forum recognizes that people living now have access to synthetic black powders and modern lubricants but as long as these are used like original black powder and the lubricants available to the people living in those days, the forum will allow discussions about them.
Modern reproduction guns that use plastic stocks are allowed to be mentioned but that is only because I recognize these guns styles represent the original guns (ever so poorly) and some of the people beginning their shooting of traditional style firearms have no other choice that is easily available to them.
Simply put, if someone has a Spanish made sidelock rifle with a plastic stock, I will allow it.
If, on the other hand, they have a wood stocked reproduction of a Model 1911 Colt semi-automatic with a flintlock mechanism on it to fire it, I will not allow it on the forum.
This whole discussion is really out of place, here in the "Welcome to the Camp" area so with that said, I am closing the thread.
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