help- 1861 musketoon

[kruzer1]

Once upon a time I was going to get involved in reenactment so I purchased a 3 band springfield. It was a beast but accurate rifle. A few years ago realizing I don't have time for that I sold it and replace it with a new 1861 enfield musketoon as I liked rifled muskets of that era for hunting.

Well I have some regret. My springfield was accurate and had a tight bore- I once knocked down a prairie dog at 300 yards with it (mostly luck but it was a good rifle)

The musketoon has been nothing but problems for me. It shoots badly to the left with wide groups (2" to the left at 20 yards) with no way to adjust sites. Add on top of this it has had major problems not firing off while I have been hunting this year- about 40% of the time.

Lastly I have had issues with the fact that the bore seems to be over-sized. While the springfield I used to own was a pain to get loaded this one the mini's just slip in- and have slipped out. Even with just normal carrying while hunting I observed a mini peaking out of the front of the barrel, more than once they have simply not been there when I have fired it off at the end of night.

Any suggestions would be helpful- I like the musketoon's look and light weight and I would like to keep using it. Just not sure if I had one built on a Friday, end of the day

 

[Trot]

First you need to find a minie that fits your rifle. Yours are obviously too small. There are different sizes available, the bullet should be no more than .002 under bore size.

 

[kruzer1]

I'll get my calibers out when I get a chance to see if I can measure things. Where can you purchase different sizes?

My father in law is saying its a waste of time and to get an inline. I don't want to give into the "dark side", lol

 

I like traditional guns. Makes for more fun and I have to keep my skill level up
A place in Cheyenne,Wy chey-castbullets (I think) makes all kinds of lead bullets and round balls.
or you can cast your own. Checkout lee or Lyman bullet moulds.
Also I would disagree with bullet being .002 smaller than bore. .002 or so smaller than the grooves would be ok. Smaller than the bore is what you have now, thus they fall out.
Since you are starting with an obvious unknown size, use your calipers to get a measurement of the bore and the grooves at the muzzle. Start there for your sizing and then work from there.
You also may want to determine the rifling twist. Too slow conicals / minis may not stabilize and not be accurate.
Then work on your sites. Might have to have a smithy do some mods for you.
Have fun shooting

 

[kruzer1]

Hey I have as story.

It was the winter before I was getting married and my wife (I love her) wanted venison at our wedding. I planned to get one with rifle but a big blizzard stopped that from happening and by the time I could get out it was muzzleloader only season... So I grabbed my traditional rifle the next day. Had a large doe come in at dark at 150 yards. Longer shot than I wanted but with one shot it was down and over and we had venison at the wedding
My only regret is selling that springfield and getting this enfield... but maybe with everyones help I can get a decent hunting rifle going again.

Well anyway it is a euroarms with 5 grooves 1 in 48" twist in the 24 inch barrel. I've never shot patched ball, but would that work with that sort of barrel? That might be something to try.

I don't cast but have been thinking on it. Getting lead around here is next to impossible so that has held me back a bit.

I've also not been using regular black powder but when I travel I'll look for some, that might solve ignition issues over the pyrodex I've been using.

Not sure what to do about the sites being off- maybe that will straighten out once I get a better bullet working with it.

 

[Trot]

No more than .002 under bore size is the proper sizing for minie balls. Closer to bore size is even better, but .002 under is the smallest acceptable size. They will expand into the rifling upon firing. This is rightfrom the guys at the North South Skirmish Association, and they know how to get the most out of a rifle musket. Both .575 and .577 are readily available, but many of the rifle muskets require even larger. I ended up getting a mold and making my own for my oversize bore Armisport 1861.

 

1 in 48 is generally good for conicals and RB's.
Each rifle is a little different.
measure bore at muzzle bet you can. Then the grooves.
Generally the difference in the two is the thickness of the patch material.
If you want a mini try to go about .002 or so over the bore diameter for a good fit as a starting point.
Most all minis have lube grooves around the base. Be sure to lube these well.
Helps in ramming them home on the powder.
Helps seal the gases for better pressure and fps.
helps soften and remove the powder fouling.
good luck!

 

[varsity07840]

Calipers are not going to work on a bore with an
odd number of lands and grooves. You can slug the bore, meaure the slug a go with a minie not more than .002 under BORE size. Or, you can buy some different size minies to see what fits best.If you think the bore is oversize, try .577 and up. Track of the Wolf has .577.,.580 and .585.

Duane

 

[kruzer1]

Well might not be the most accurate but I used calipers. In the grooves .581 tightest dimensions not on grooves .577

My maxi bullets that definataly are lose measure .573 The LEE real bullets that I think are loose are .577 and some traditional mini bullets I got are .577

I should say those LEE bullets load tight- I have to use a lot of pressure to get them past the muzzle- but once inside I am pretty sure they are working loose with normal walking, etc.

I should also mention this rifle does shoot well when I practiced this summer- to the left 1" per 20yards, but consistantly- I did not test it at 100 yards but at 25 yards about a half inch or so group. Ironically it shot those undersized bullets best (???) The tighter bullets groups were about twice that.

Looks like I might have to play with things. Maybe do a test and see if those tighter bullets really work loose like the maxi's. All I know is two nights ago I had the tighter bullets loaded. At the end of the night went to shoot it at a hillside and nothing happened. When I took it to the shop to blow out the bullet with some compressed air there was no bullet... I do not remember pointing the bore down at a bad angle. Maybe the mayans are messing with me, lol!

 

[kruzer1]

There is a chance it fell out in my truck... I'll have to look. I guess I might have to try some of those larger ones from track the wolf..

I want to mention that I was also dealing with some temp extremes in the field. Loading it in daytime - 50's and it getting to the teens by the time the sun dropped. Wondering if condensation or other factors might be in play....

 

[varsity07840]

Well might not be the most accurate but I used calipers. In the grooves .581 tightest dimensions not on grooves .577

My maxi bullets that definataly are lose measure .573 The LEE real bullets that I think are loose are .577 and some traditional mini bullets I got are .577

I should say those LEE bullets load tight- I have to use a lot of pressure to get them past the muzzle- but once inside I am pretty sure they are working loose with normal walking, etc.

I should also mention this rifle does shoot well when I practiced this summer- to the left 1" per 20yards, but consistantly- I did not test it at 100 yards but at 25 yards about a half inch or so group. Ironically it shot those undersized bullets best (???) The tighter bullets groups were about twice that.

Looks like I might have to play with things. Maybe do a test and see if those tighter bullets really work loose like the maxi's. All I know is two nights ago I had the tighter bullets loaded. At the end of the night went to shoot it at a hillside and nothing happened. When I took it to the shop to blow out the bullet with some compressed air there was no bullet... I do not remember pointing the bore down at a bad angle. Maybe the mayans are messing with me, lol!

Just out of curiosity, who's the manufacturer?
Also Lee bullet and maxis are designed so that the top band engraves the rifling at the muzzle.
After clearing the muzzle they slide down a clean bore pretty easily. When the rifle is fired, the lower bands bump up into the grooves. It's a different concept than a minie that is totally under bore size when loaded. Properly lubed and of correct diameter it should stay seated if you give it a few firm taps to flare the skirt a bit.



Duane

 

[kruzer1]

euroarms- got it new a bout 2-3 years ago. That makes sense with the mini's will have to check with it.

Looking down the barrel I am not to sure that the front site was centered properly but that could be my imagination... there appears no adjustment on that so I might be SOL on that front, lol!

I'll try some different ammo types, I have a few traditional mini's I will try with the flared skirt. I'll see if they lock in a bit better- maybe order some mini's the next size up as well.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Leatherbark]

Cut you a piece of hacksaw blade with a sight notch in it with a dremel. Take the small piece of new sight blade and epoxy it to the back of your rear sight with the sight slightly to the right. This will correct your windage. Experiment. Blacken the sight blade.

You can have a dovetail cut after removing the front sight and replace it with one that you can move in the dovetail.


Bob

 

[GaCop]

Teflon thread tape wrapped around the grease grooves a couple of turns can help hold a Minie' in place a bit tighter.

I pre-apply the tape at home and then load normal with lube before seating the bullet.

Tom

 

[nkbj]

Just something you can do to check for minie diameter on a barrel with an odd number of grooves.

Take an over sized minie and turn it in the muzzle using the rifling like a machine tool. Then measure the lead. It doesn't give you a precise measurement but after you try it a few times you can figure out what will fit in the bore.

 

[kruzer1]

Hey guys- I've tried the larger musket balls and they do work better. I've decided not to mess with the sights on the musketoon for now - to keep it original. Instead I've sold on of my extra bolt action mausers I don't care for and ordered a gun kit. I figure it will be fun to build a muzzleloader from scratch and set up the sights I want on it Well and if nothing else I have two smokepoles to play with

 

Kruzer, what kit did you order?
My first was a CVA plainsman kit from Montgomery ward in about 1977. Lot of work filing back then.
Everything was rough cast except the lock and trigger. But enjoyed the project.
Next was two Navy Arms NMA .44 revolvers same time period.
Two months ago bought a 1847 Walker Colt kit.
Not quite as much work, but to do right will still take a while.
Good winter time projects.
Have fun and enjoy.

 

[kruzer1]

Dixie Works Hawken in .,50 cal. It was on sale (wanted .54 but they were out of stock) I really like the hawken so decided to go that route.

Someday I want to do an expensive flintlock from one of those nice kits but right now $$ is short with two kids in daycare

I've done a lot of custom work and restoration of mausers. I've done some custom stocks (and spent 30-40 hours on them getting them to just the perfect finish) and I have all the equipment and practice to do slow rust bluing- which would be pretty authentic for muzzleloaders since it is the type of bluing that goes back to medieval days.

The only part I am worried about is doing the mechanical parts of the rifle having never really done that yet. Hopefully if I get stuck I can get a bit of help.

This should be a fun project. Hunting season is almost over and gives me an excuse to fire up the wood stove in the shop

 

[RhinoDave]

I've had my Musketoon for a couple of years now and I shoot nothing but patched rb. I mold my own and getting 25 rbs instead of 14 minies per lb is easier on my lead supply. I was in the same boat with my 575213 mold for my Zouave. The minies would just slide down the barrel and rather than mess around trying to find the correct sized minies when all I do is a little paper killing, I took the easier path. I still shoot a few now and then but it's just for fun and if I'm lucky, I can hit a gallon milk jug at fifty yds. Mine is an older Armi San Paolo which Euroarms bought out many moons ago.