Help choosing my first flintlock

[MountainEMTIV]

I'm about to start buying parts for my first flintlock build. I would like a Tennessee rifle with a 44" barrel in .36-.45, but would also like to build a Tennessee style with a 36" barrel in .54-.58 and have no idea which to choose first. I plan to use these for hunting, (of course smaller calibers for small game, and larger calibers for larger game mainly deer and hogs)

This will be the first of many builds

 

[jethro224]

I'd go big first.

You can shoot a squirrels head off with a big caliber but might have trouble hunting deer and hogs with the .36 rifle.
If you do any woodswalk shoots there is usually an advantage with the bigger bores too.

Of course the .45 might be a good all-around compromise.
:hmm: Or maybe a smoothbore...

:idunno: Build 'em all real fast. You need 'em all anyway, right? :wink:

When I started buying custom flinters, I went small, big, smooth. If I had it to do over I would reverse the order.

 

[fleener]

You assume that it might be the first of several. You might only build one.

I agree with jethro. Go big first there is nothing I can not do with a 54 cal that you can do with a smaller cal.


Fleener

 

[MountainEMTIV]

Thanks for the replys.
In regards to twist rates, which is better?
1:70 or 1:56 for the .54

1:70 or 1:66 for the .58

 

[longcruise]

Those are both just fine. One can argue convincingly for either and both have uncompromising advocates. My next will be a .50 with 1:56.

Good luck with whatever you choose. Fleener makes a good point, you may not want to build a second.

 

[MountainEMTIV]

Would the 1:66 still be too slow for conicals?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

1:66 is far too slow. Those oval thingies are unnecessary anyhow.

Take your time building them and enjoy the fruits of your labor. I have built two, a .45 and a .40. Its an addiction, but rehab is for quitters, so don't bother trying to escape it. :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

There are a couple of things about the slow twist guns shooting conicals.

The rate of twist is far too low to spin a conical fast enough to stabilize it.
Without sufficient rotational speed, a conical bullet will turn end over end often hitting the target while the point is pointed in a direction other than in the line of flight.
Needless to say, accuracy is out of the question when the slug is gyrating in unpredictable directions.

The second problem is, slow twist barrels like 1:56 or 1:70 are made for shooting patched roundballs.

Patched roundballs work best if the rifling grooves are fairly deep. It isn't uncommon to find roundball barrel rifling that is .010" to over .016" (ten to sixteen thousandths of an inch) deep.

As I say, those deep grooves work very good with cotton patches to plug them up.

The deep grooves work very poorly with conical bullets though.

The lead can't expand deep enough to plug up the grooves so there is a lot of gas that leaks past the slug.
It also melts the slug causing leading and adding to the difficulty of the bullet to obtain the rotational spin needed to stabilize it.

This is true even with the lead "Minie' ball", hollow base style bullet.
That's why the Civil War Rifled Muskets that was designed to shoot Minie's had very shallow rifling grooves.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Although my primary rifle has a 1:56 twist, my first one has 1:66 and it's a tack driver. It likes a heavy load of 95 grs. but is more accurate than I am with a patched .490 round ball. The 1in66 works just fine for round ball.

Twisted_1in66 :hatsoff:
Dan

 

[jdw276]

My first build I just started is 1-66 36" 58 cal. Go big the man said, I go big! Never know when that t rex is gonna walk by and threaten the family.

 

[MSW]

I agree with Jethro - you can 'bark' squirrels with a .54, but you can't do much on Bambi with a .36 ...

free advice, and doubtless well worth the price :grin:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK partner, the first concern...

"Tennessee" style rifles are a sort of hybrid (imho) of the "Southern, Iron Mounted, Po' Boy" rifle. Traditionally they have a few characteristics. The obvious one is the slender stock with an elongated tang. Some have the "lollipop" tang, others simply have a long, thin tang, longer than any of the other rifle styles. They are simple, iron shod guns, often without a butt plate, and they tend to be at the small end in caliber, but with barrels from 42" or longer.

So one in .45 (with a 42" barrel) as was suggested is right.

Shorter and really large caliber isn't a "Tennessee" rifle..., now a Southern style possibly, but not really a Tennessee. I have found that .54 is very adequate for large game, and I like my 38" swamped barreled "Mountain Rifle".

What I'm talking about above though is strictly COSMETICS. It only applies IF...you want something that "fits" into the traditional styles as we group stuff today. That is up to you. Nobody can "forbid" you from doing what you want or need in your rifle.


IT IS NOT in any way intended to criticize your desires for a rifle. You are the fellow who has to carry it in the woods. You are the fellow who is going to target shoot with it, and perhaps hunt with it. You are the fellow who is going to handle the recoil when shooting, and finally you are the one who is going to pay for the parts and build it. :grin:

So yes, you can show up some place with a 36" .58 caliber, full stock, iron mounted rifle (yowza! :shocked2: ), and you may get some odd looks. Just remember, odd looks turn to smiles and pats-on-the-back when you shoot well at the range or down the deer. So get good parts, assemble them well, and then shoot that rifle a lot!

:thumbsup:

Now about barrels, calibers, and twists....

For the over-the-counter barrels that most of us buy to build, or have built into rifles... a 1:48 or slower twist rate is fine for patched round ball. 1:48 was very popular long before the conical bullet was popular; it's not a "compromise" twist rate. The slower twist rates can give you the ability to shoot some really stout loads, plus make cleaning a bit easier in some situations. I have barrels from 1:48 up to 1:66 and they all shoot patched round ball very well.

As for conical bullets, those same over-the-counter barrels tend to be a poor choice when the twist rate is slower than 1:48, but it's not just the twist rate, it's the manner of how the rifling was machined that counts. Since we're all buying from the same list of barrel choices, it's a good rule-of-thumb that slower than 1:48 isn't a good idea for a conical bullet.

I mention this detail as some folks get confused when they learn this rule, THEN they look at the specs of say a factory rifle like the Pedersoli Enfield, Richmond, or Springfield muskets. Reproductions of famous Civil War military "rifled muskets"..., they shoot conical bullets very well...and have twist rates as slow as 1:76 :shocked2: So... some guys get perplexed, as they learned slower than 1:48 = bad for conical; Pedersoli makes great conical shooting rifles in 1:66 and 1:76...and confusion sets in. Somebody is wrong....NOPE....the rifling in those Pedersoli rifles is designed for a specific conical bullet of a specific range of dimensions. :wink: The rule of thumb that we use still applies, but like all rules of thumb, it's not absolute....

So those are some of the consideration, and it's up to you to be pleased with the end result, not "us".

LD

 

[MountainEMTIV]

Thanks for the replys getting a lot of info and advise. Am I wrong in wanting a .58? Will the 45/50/54 be sufficient in killing larger game? I know it I have to do my part on shot placement.

I didn't plan on replicating any existing rifles, simply taking one style and changing a few things. My ideas for this rifle will be a no frills hunting rifle with iron mountings, and a walnut or light curl maple stock, but I'm starting to think about a different style stock.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Again, you're not "wrong" in wanting a .58.

Being in TN and wanting a classic TN rifle isn't wrong either. I love that particular style, though it is post Rev War. I happen to think a TN rifle in .40 is a classic combination, but that's my opinion, and some do not recommend a .40 for deer hunting, so they might say go with at least a .45. They are correct that you will find many more states that allow .45 for deer and disallow anything smaller for deer, and a TN style in .45 isn't wrong either....and .45 does slay deer.

I should think that a stout load from anything larger than a .50 would be rather hard on the slender wrist one finds on a classic TN stock. But if you want a .54 or .58 then go with something like a "Southern Rifle" or "Virginia rifle" in iron with the more robust stock.

I bought a "PA Mountain Rifle" in .54 with a 38", swamped barrel, made by Cabin Creek. It's very simple, and I got mine with brass as I wanted a rifle that could've been made near Philadelphia, and then got shipped to George Morgan's store in the Illinois country in the 1760's for sale to one of his hunters. So my rifle works for the long hunter decade, and for AWI..., and I can "push" it for F&I...but it's not from any classic "school" of rifle styles. No butt plate, nor toe plate, no muzzle cap, nor entry thimble, and no side plate. Single trigger, super accurate, slays deer, and takes small game with head shots.

Now something similar to that with iron hardware would be very much a "Southern Poor Boy" rifle. Might meet what you have in mind...might not...but could be at least a starting place for your concept.

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Thanks for the replys.
In regards to twist rates, which is better?
1:70 or 1:56 for the .54

1:70 or 1:66 for the .58

"better" is often a subjective concept.
Understand, slow twists require heavier charges to achieve top accuracy. My 1:72" twist .54" cal. Jaeger needs shoulder popping loads in excess of 100-120 grains for good accuracy. Very dissapointing. If you get either caliber 45/54, I suggest a 1:48" and no slower than the 1/56". You will use less powder, get top accuracy and still be able to load up for hunting.

 

[MountainEMTIV]

Glad I asked, the "slender wrist" of the Tn style in a larger caliber might not be a good idea, (I didn't think of that) I'm starting to think a Va or NC style might fit the bill?

 

[don hepler]

How in depth, do you want the build to be? There are kits, of various levels. Some build with wood blanks, while some use inletted stocks. Some have the dove tails cut and breech installed, while others do all this themselves. Then there are those that build locks from kits, or already finished ones. But the easiest of all is a rifle in the "white", such as a Tip Curtis, but also more costly. However a rifle in the white will give you the basis, such as wood finishing and metal finishing. You can turn a 600.00 dollar kit into a 300.00 dollar rifle or one worth thousands. I would do a lot of research before starting. You must know your own personal limits, and live with the results. I've seen it go both ways, some person with exceptional talent and patients, might build a beautiful rifle, while others will totally butcher it up.

I say this from experience, I wanted a rifle to hunt with, didn't have to be fancy but I still wanted it to look good and shoot good. I am a machinist and I have been thru gun school classes when I was young. I decided to spend the extra bucks, for a Tip Curtis, in the white. I could have taken it out and shot it just like it was, but I took a lot of effort to make it into a decent rifle.

Just something to think about, before you jump in.

 

[MountainEMTIV]

Since this is my first build, I'm going to go with a precarve and do the inletting and dovetails myself.

I've learned over the years to be patient and to take my time when it comes to building guns.

 

[jdw276]

Doing pretty much the same thing. It will be my first built rifle, not for sale, that I have "designed" to me. What I envision is a rifle that is close to hc, but not because I built it how I want it to look and feel. I have not taken the time to research the hc perfect rifle. That is not me.

If someone asks me I can say I built it in the tenn style but it is not perfect because I built it and its my first one. I hope to pass it down someday but never sell it.

I might take more time and study styles more but probably not on the next one. I just want to take my time, not get frustrated and say never again. It is my first one and I don't want it to be my last.

Not trying to steal your thread but it sounds like you are going through the same soul search process. Good luck.

 

[Pete G]

My feelings on this are a little different from the most of the guys. There are many, many builders who started with the approach of "It's my rifle so I'll build what I want". Mostly these guys now say that they keep that piece hidden in the closet somewhere so that nobody will ever see it. I would advise to study and build your rifle as close to "historically correct" as you can. You will probably like it better in the long run.

A Tennessee rifle in the style of the Bean family of smiths would make a very good hunting rifle. While a 45 will do for most any whitetail deer within 100 yards, 50 seems to be the most popular caliber. A 7/8" x 42".50cal or a B weight swamped barrel will make a nice rifle. If you want something a little lighter try a 13/16" x 42" .45 or a B weight swamped.

If you are like a lot of guys you might find that designing and building these things is every bit as much fun as shooting them. Sell one to pay for the parts on the next and you are on your way to having a hobby that can pay for itself, which is a whole lot more than can be said for golf or fishing.