Help finding builder/mfg of this Crockett rifle.

[Pittsburghunter]

I don't have a picture of it because it is on the USS Greeneville (SSN 772). It was presented to the crew by Fess Parker the actor as " a replica of the famous Crockett "Old Betsy" rifle presented to Davey Crockett in 1822"

I have been doing some research to try and find out who built it and how historically accurate it is but I have some doubts to how historical it is at all.

1- The rifle is a caplock with a patent breech and what appears to be a short .45cal barrel.

2- The rifle is a halfstock with the barrel pinned and at least 4 inlays made of brass (moons and arrows).

I can't find any marks on the barrel and the way it is mounted on the wall I can't get a look at the lock or the right side of the stock.

It is done with all brass furniture and a silver cap has double triggers and actually looks ready to shoot.

Is this just a Hollywood prop? The rifle looks well built, inlays are done very well and fit and finish is very good as well.

Any thoughts to where this rifle came from?

 

[necchi]

Why don't ya ask him? Here's a link to the family Winery in Cali,, http://www.fessparker.com/html/contact_us.html

He's 84 or better now, so I pray he's in good health. If you ask real nice they might answer,, but don't be surprised, they might think yer just another fruitcake fan. No disrespect intended,, but I'm sure they get a ton of e-mails

 

[Birddog6]

Good luck talking to him :shake: You may get some flunky there at the corp. and they come off as a bunch of Californey treehuggers.

I can't tell ya about that particular rifle, however, the Fess Parker corp. contacted me in Dec. 2006 about making some replica's of "Ol Betsy".
I decided not to do it because they insisted the rifle me permanently made so they could not ever be fired. No bore in the barrel, just a fake bore hole of 2-3" or so, the lock cannot fire, etc. It was purely a fake replica & a wall hanger. You could hear the gasp at the other end of the phone when I told them ALL of my rifles are working firing rifles....... :grin: The response was "Oh No, we don't want it to actually Fire !!"
Anyway, building fake rifle wall hangers is just not my cup of tea, regardless of who it was for. :shake:

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Thank you Birddog6, I guess that takes you off the list of builders :grin:

I am working on the sub again Wendsday I guess now I will have to check the bore on that thing.

In my research I came upon the Caywood Crocketts, Oh My those are spectacular rifles. $2500 down payment just to order one :shocked2:.

Every historical reference so far shows the rifle was definately a flintlock. So what is up with this being a caplock? I think you answered that.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Don't know about them being spectacular rifles, but they sure have spectacular prices! Wonder if they have that little Black Powder Only warning stamped into the side of the barrel like their other guns do.

 

[jimmytheshank]

I've been to the Alamo I dont know how many times, and there's always been talk about a rifle referred to as "Ol Betsy" as being a caplock, half-stock rifle. But in the dispaly case in the souvenier/ museum behind the Long Barracks, there's a replica of "Ol Betsy" that Mr. Parker recieved from some folks that is a beautiful, fullstock, FLINTLOCK rifle. Whatever the actual rifle was, I think the one at the Alamo is a lot better looking.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Its highly unlikely that Daniel Boone's Rifle was a percusion cap lock rifle. The majority of his life spent hunting, and exploring was with the use of flintlocks. Ol' Betsy was not recovered from the Alamo. It may have been burned along with the bodies in what is now the open court in front of the Alamo as we know it today. Neither were Jim Bowie's famous knife, nor the sword used by Travis.

He died on March 6, 1836, and while the percussion cap had been in existence for at least a decade, the caps were not widely available, and not considered very reliable. There were few guns other than pocket pistols and some shotguns using the system then. Colt was issued his patent to his Paterson revolved in October of 1836, 7 months after the Fall of the Alamo, a bit too late to help in winning Texas Independence. Conversions of flintlocks became quite common in the 1840s, but that is several years after the Fall of the Alamo.

 

[T.C.Albert]

Not to hijack the thread for an age old discussion, but I just handled a very plain, full stocked percussion long rifle made in the back country of Illinois "dated" 1833! Its in a well respected collection and is one of the earliest "dated" percussion rifles around. That said, I thought Crockett was presented a perc. rifle from the boys in Philladelphia as well in 1835 or so??...which was before he went to the Alamo of course.I think perc. rifles were in fairly common use by those inclined to see the advantages of them as soon as they could be had, which was pretty early.(and while Im at it...I might as well also admit that I believe the same to be true of back action locks as well, I think that they were way more popular than is represented by M.L. rifles built now a days...)

:redface:
TCA

 

[paulvallandigham]

I would be suspicious of the date. A lot of things were going on in the 1830s, in Illinois. Chicago was incorporated. And several Counties were officially named and established. Just because that date appears on the gun does not necessarily mean it was made in that year. By serial number, my 1884 Springfield was actually made in 1886-87! But the trapdoor has the number "1884" engraved in it. We know that it represents a model change, because there is so much written history available still on that particular gun.
A lot of immigration was occurring into Illinois, with many of the Veterans of the War of 1812 using the land patents they were finally given in part payment for their services to homestead land here. Your friend, Curtiss Johnson would be the guy to check that 'Illinois gun".

There is a percussion rifle, in small caliber in a museum somewhere, that I read about that is credited as having belonged to Crockett. The information I read indicated it was not " Ol'Betsy, and not the gun he took to Texas. The picture of the gun showed a rifle that had not been well used, so I have my doubts about whether he ever used it much at all.

 

[JayDee Flohr]

Don't know about a percussion gun. There is a book called "Born out of season" by Marshal Ralph L. Hooker in which he has an original Boone rifle. Lots of photos of it and it's flint.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Its highly unlikely that Daniel Boone's Rifle was a percusion cap lock rifle. The majority of his life spent hunting, and exploring was with the use of flintlocks. Ol' Betsy was not recovered from the Alamo. It may have been burned along with the bodies in what is now the open court in front of the Alamo as we know it today. Neither were Jim Bowie's famous knife, nor the sword used by Travis.


He died on March 6, 1836, and while the percussion cap had been in existence for at least a decade, the caps were not widely available, and not considered very reliable. There were few guns other than pocket pistols and some shotguns using the system then. Colt was issued his patent to his Paterson revolved in October of 1836, 7 months after the Fall of the Alamo, a bit too late to help in winning Texas Independence. Conversions of flintlocks became quite common in the 1840s, but that is several years after the Fall of the Alamo.

Boone died in 1820 and almost to a certainty his rifles were flintlocks. Doubt he ever heard of the Alamo, though.

 

[JayDee Flohr]

Haven't figured out how I got to thinking about Boone when the post is about Crockett. Sorry, my bad. :surrender:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I think you were responding to a post that referenced Boone. I was just being a smart @$$--I know you both were thinking of Crockett. Mostly I was just yanking Paul's chain. :v

 

[rabjr]

You sure Pauls not trying to change history?? :rotf:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Naw! He wouldn't do that--would he? :rotf: Weren't Boone and Crockett the same guy but only one of 'em died at the Alamo? The other one O.D.'d on espresso shots at an early Dunkin' Donuts I think. Or maybe that was James Fenimore Cooper? I dunno....I'm so confused!?!

 

[paulvallandigham]

You are right. My mistake. of course Boone only had flintlocks. It was Crockett I was thinking about, based on another post. MY BAD! :bow:

 

[T.C.Albert]

Confused...Blame Fess Parker....Disney...Hollywood
or all three?
TCA

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You are right. My mistake. of course Boone only had flintlocks. It was Crockett I was thinking about, based on another post. MY BAD! :bow:

No BAD involved Paul. I knew who you meant. Just had a juvenile moment and had to yank your chain!

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Thanks for the help guys. Haven't learned too much more but knowing that it could have been a perc gun at least makes the presentation piece a "PC" copy.

The off topic replies bumping this thread hasn't hurt either and was fun reading :thumbsup:

 

[Ephraim]

If you were thinking of the rifle used in the Crockett films I think it was a flint built by
Roland Southgate. there was a story in muzzblast years ago that talked about the Southgate rifle.
Ephraim