Help for a sick siler lock...

[Kuckus]

The siler lock for my current build will "fire" fine except the frizzen will only pull off the pan about 1/4" (upwards) . The frizzen will not kick over to the "fired" position. I have enough spark to successfully fire the rifle, but again... The frizzen is setting close to the primed position and the back of it is only about a 1/4" or less off of the pan after the rifle has fired :shocked2: :cursing: ! My gut tells me to file the spring under the frizzen but which part... the long flats or the round curve to ease the tension? Any other suggestions :grin: :hmm: ?

 

[Stophel]

This is a big problem with the Siler lock. The frizzen spring looks like a ski ramp. The toe of the frizzen has to really go "uphill" to flip the frizzen open. It shouldn't be like this. Ideally, the top "arm" of the frizzen spring would be very close to horizontal (just look at all the old locks...they knew what they were doing). The spring needs to be reshaped, flattened out, and rehardened and tempered. You can mess around with the toe of the frizzen and do other rigging, but what SHOULD be done is to reshape the spring. :winking:

 

[Roy]

A good way to tell is to remove the frizzen spring once and see if the lock functions as it should (sparks well and the frizzen opens). Sometimes it just needs a bit of oil to work, and sometimes you need to file, stone or grind. The spring may be too hard to use a file on, but if you use a grinder keep a can of water near so you can keep the piece cool.

You need to file the long top flat, with the spring, not across. No need to file the curve or the bottom half. remove a little and try it out, remember its always easier to remove than it is to put it back. :v

 

[marmot]

Try polishing the foot of the frizzen and the top contact area of the frizzen spring and using some good, light oil in the contact area before you proceed to more radical surgery. If this doesn't do the trick, rotate the fizzen by hand through the sticky area and try to see why it is not passing over smoothly; perhaps a bit of light filing and polishing will correct the geometry in that area. If you must cut the spring, I prefer to remove metal from the top arm with sandpaper (220) wrapped around a file, just tapering the cut into the bend to make sure the spring retains a even curve when flexed - easy to go too far here! Once it's close switch to finer grades of sandpaper to cut down on the amount of polishing needed. I'm sure others have different methods of dealing with this problem, but these steps are the way I approach it...

Metal is hard to put back, so go slow whatever you do, and good luck!

M

 

[Vaino]

I take it that the frizzen ends up on the flint? I've corrected this problem on Silers by rotating the frizzen so it's open at 25 degrees and mark the toe position on the frizzen spring. W/ a small stone in the Dremel I grind a "hump" or cam on the spring that's .015 high w/ the marked toe position as the high point. This cam will cause the frizzen to toggle over. After grinding, a good stoning and polishing parallel w/ the spring is req'd. Grinding this cam eliminates the need to anneal and reharden the spring. There are many other possible reasons that could cause your problem....frizzen rebounding, flint too short, excessive frizzen friction and others, but if these have been eliminated, grinding the cam on the frizzen spring has worked for me.....Fred

 

[BLAHMAN]

I file the frizzen springs down a tad. I've noticed that frizzen springs made on both Siler and L&R locks are very thick, and very strong. I shouldn't really take that much pressure to hold the frizzen closed.

Saves on flint life too!

 

The frizzen spring was also called the feather spring in our early days. Congrats gentelmen you al have done this lad a great favor with your advice. Right on!!!!!! :hatsoff:

 

[rich pierce]

Stophel has it right. The frizzen spring is mis-shapen. You can mess with the "tit" on the frizzen toe (odd mental image there) to make it cam better, but it's iffy business. I'd buy a spare spring and heat and re-shape it. You could send it to me and I'd give it a go.

 

[Kuckus]

Rich,
I'd love to send the lock to you but I can't figure out how to E-mail you for specifics . Also I'd like to thank everyone else who replied... I'm still trying to beat the father's day deadline so I can "git-er done" for dad. The members of this board are a wealth of knowledge that function 24-7 :applause: !

 

[paulvallandigham]

Kuckus: Click on his name over on the left hand side, and it will bring up his personal page. On the bar on top you will find a Private message indicator. Click on that, and you can send an email directly to him- a " personal message" as it is often called. He can send you his private email address, if he has not printed it on the personal page, so you can correspond directly. Easy.

 

[BLAHMAN]

The frizzen spring was also called the feather spring in our early days. Congrats gentelmen you al have done this lad a great favor with your advice. Right on!!!!!! :hatsoff:

Hope I get a gold star! (Mrs. Blahman will be so proud!)

 

[Kuckus]

Thanks for the advice on private topics!:bow:

 

[Stophel]

Yeah, what Rich said.... :winking:

When I do frizzen springs, I will pretty well flatten them out and get them to the shape that I think is pretty close. Then, before hardening and tempering, I will put the spring on the plate (just the pin, not the screw) and press it upwards into the frizzen. I will open the frizzen while pressing on the spring in imitation of spring pressure, and see where it snaps open. I can usually get it close right off. If it isn't snapping open soon enough, position the frizzen at the desired "snap open" point, and mark where the toe is touching the spring. Then you can bend the spring ever so slightly downward at this point. When satisfied, reharden and temper. It takes some trial and error, but you will end up with a VASTLY superior frizzen/spring relationship.


Chris (don't call me Stophel) Immel

 

[paulvallandigham]

A Frizzen spring only needs to put about 2-3 lbs. of pressure on the toe of the Frizzen to keep it closed. Most currently manufactured springs are more than 10 lbs. That alone makes them hard to snap open, and destroys flints in a hurry. In addition, the mainsprings are also much harder in spring tension than is necessary or desireable. A 10 lb mainspring with a 2 lb. feather spring does wonders for ignition, and extending the life of flints.

 

[C_Laubach]

A Frizzen spring only needs to put about 2-3 lbs. of pressure on the toe of the Frizzen to keep it closed. Most currently manufactured springs are more than 10 lbs. That alone makes them hard to snap open, and destroys flints in a hurry. In addition, the mainsprings are also much harder in spring tension than is necessary or desireable. A 10 lb mainspring with a 2 lb. feather spring does wonders for ignition, and extending the life of flints.

compared to what?................I have SEVERAL original locks that would suggest otherwise.

Chris Laubach

 

[mikelange]

You might, also, while you're grinding and tweaking the frizzen spring (which I've needed to do on several Silers, so I agree with the advice to go for it), do as was suggested in an early reply and make sure you don't have any binding or rubbing issues. The frizzen pivot screw might be too tight, or the frizzen too tight a fit between the bridle and lockplate; if this problem you're having occurs when the lock's mounted in the stock, the edge of the frizzen where it meets the barrel flat may be rubbing at that point. These are all problems that crop up occasionally when dealing with locks assembled from castings (even when they were assembled by someone else, as is the case with many "finished" Silers that you can buy). Checking these details and correcting any small glitches will result in a smoother-working lock regardless of what you do with the frizzen toe and spring.

Good luck, and, as has been said, be careful. Not enough metal removed is a problem that can be fixed. Not so too much!

 

[Stophel]

The frizzen spring has to provide enough resistance to allow the flint to scrape sparks off the frizzen face. If the spring were too light, it might just smack the frizzen open without scraping the flint down the surface as it should. It's not just there to simply keep the frizzen closed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Take a walk down the slug gun range at frendship, and ask the shooters to allow you to try their trigger pulls. It will amaze you. The lighter the springs, the less disturbance to the rifle on firing, so that the shooter can hold on target shot after shot. The precision shooters on the slug gun line have known this for years. The slug gun guys are the Research and Development arm of black powder shooting sports. It behooves us all to be just smart enough to learn from them when we tune up our hunting guns. The feather spring's only job is to keep the frizzen closed when the gun is held in a position other than upright. 2 lbs. does that job fine. A standard test for frizzens is to remove the feather spring, and test the frizzen. It should spark, and snap open if the rest of the lock is tuned properly.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR, I think your concern is not warranted. The weight of the frizzen, and the angle of the flint to the face of the frizzen, determine whether the flint scrapes steel from the frizzen when the hammer is released. The frizzen spring, or feather spring, has nothing to do with this. It keeps the frizzen closed, until the gun is fired, and then the spring's pressue on the toe of the frizzen keeps it open, so it does not snap back and break the flint. Very little pressure is required to do this. 2 lbs. is more than enough. Mine is set at 3 lbs. simply because I got tired before I took the spring tension all the way down to 2 lbs.! The lock sparks well, every time, and the frizzen snaps open when the flint hits it. Steel is scraped from the face, and not dug out of it, because the angle of the flint to the face is correct. In the process of swinging down to the bottom of the frizzen, a small edge is broken off of the edge of the flint, knapping it so it is ready for the next shot.

 

[BLAHMAN]

A good way to test this is to remove the frixxen spring, put in a little powder and see if the lock can ignite without the spring.

I do agree with you on the validity of the spring tension....there isn't that much needed. My reference point is if I can easily snap it open with my thumb. Not very scientific, but is works.

I don't grind the spring down, I file it.