Help I.D. My Fusil

[Odentheviking]

Great thread on 'officer's fusils', got me thinking. Does anybody wanna help me I.D. this Fusil? Gauges out just under 69 cal. or 12 gauge. 37" barrel and 53" over all. Looking for what time period it was made/used and who may have used it? (Officer, Sgt., Lite Inf.???).
Thank you, Paul. http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/094.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/095.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/096.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/097.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/098.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/099.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/100.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/101.jpg

 

[pargent]

As always it is hard to say just with photos , so here goes (could be wrong ).
Birmingham made , Kettland marked ,looks like there was an EIC skateboarding lion under the pan since removed , Baker Pattern stock , post 1813 ?
Very nice though .

 

[pargent]

Forgot to add Sgt.s

 

[Odentheviking]

Forgot to add Sgt.s

Thank you very much Phill!
When i traded for this,(25 years ago!), I sent the lock off to The Riffle Shop and had them rework it. They added the new frizzen & screw and frizzen spring & screw. I wanted them to build me a complete lock to replace the original as not to alter the original to much. But they told me that they did not have a repro lock to match and a custom build would be BIG$$$$!
They said the lock was too big to be an Officer Fusil or Lite Inf. and too small to be a Dragoon.
They also believed it to be some custom built piece but w/no markings or extra fancy engraving they guessed an Officer that had little/no money or a Sgt. that had extra cash for a lighter/sub caliber piece.
Thanks again, Paul.

 

[MacRob46]

It sure does look like an India pattern Brown Bess musket or fusil except for the slightly shorter barrel and smaller caliber which could mean it was a sergeant's fusil as mentioned above. The side plate, butt plate, ramrod thimbles and their placement are correct for an India pattern but the lock plate, which is absent the Crown marking and broad arrow could mean it was a civilian fusil made from surplus parts. If it is an India pattern, then the gooseneck cock would indicate it was made before 1809 when the reinforced variety became standard. Also, and I hesitate to mention this, it could be a movie prop although it is a bit too nice for that IMHO. An awful lot of movie prop guns were made from antique parts years ago before replicas were available. Whatever it is, it is a very nice gun and appears to be in very good shape.

 

[Wes/Tex]

It is kind of mish-mash of parts and design. With a Pratt patent 2nd ramrod pipe and a trigger guard nose that doesn't really follow anything from the ordnance patents. Really has a lot of character and flavor! :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Must've had a finger twitch! :haha:

 

[pargent]

It's not a Prat pipe but an EIC pipe(same as on an India pattern Bess ) . The gun is an EIC gun not from the Tower or from Gov. contract .

 

[Wes/Tex]

Right you are Phil, nothing like putting on my good glasses to see it's not a full taper Pratt. Think I'm having a "silly" attack. I assume sgt's or some sort of fusil considering the caliber and barrel length, don't have anything here to confirm that. Interesting piece of hardware, no matter what. :thumbsup:

 

[KABAR2]

How about a photo of the lock? being 69 caliber and not seeing any gov't ownership marks this may be a commercial musket made for the shipping trade or to be sold to friendly governments Portugal was an ally of the British and received arms from England this might be one of them.... I examined a carbine last month that was English made and Portuguese used

 

[Wes/Tex]

Be nice to know if it's been filed, like it appears or something else.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/095.jpg

 

[MacRob46]

The lock plate, at least in comparison to the photos I have of India pattern locks, is the same size as those on the India pattern muskets. The lock plate does not look filed to me from your photo. According to Anthony Darling, EIC muskets received lots of different markings and I think it is safe to assume that some were probably not marked where you would expect them to be. At any rate, as I said, I think it is a very nice piece.

 

[Odentheviking]

How about a photo of the lock? /quote]

OK, I pulled the lock and here are two more pics.
I don't think the lock was every filed, maybe, but the stamp must have been very light. It is not flat in that area, not sure what that odd color change is there. The lock is about 6 1/4" long, I think the norm for an India Pattern lock is about 6 3/4". I can't find any marks/stamps other than the barrel proof marks.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/001.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/002.jpg

Thank you every one for the great posts/comments. It's all very helpful and interesting. Paul.

 

[Odentheviking]

Sorry, pics got moved to here.
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/001-1.jpg
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tiger_rifles/Mini Cannon Rework/002-1.jpg

 

[Odentheviking]

Also, can anybody I.D. the stamp/mark just behind the sideplate and above the trigger?
I can try and get a better picture but it seems to be a "3" or reversed "E" that is very stylized and/or has fancy scrolls.
Thanks again for all the input and ideas.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

... Gauges out just under 69 cal. or 12 gauge. ...

Just to be formal, 12ga is nominally .729"; 14ga is .693" and 15ga .677". See this table up in the reference section.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Odentheviking]

... Gauges out just under 69 cal. or 12 gauge. ...

Just to be formal, 12ga is nominally .729"; 14ga is .693" and 15ga .677". See this table up in the reference section.

Regards,
Joel

Thanks Joel, The only real gauge I have is one of those small triangle, metal things that have Caliber on one side and Gauge on the other. Stamped numbers are pretty small so maybe it reads "14 gauge". On the Caliber side it is clearly one notch below "70 Cal.".

Does this mean this musket would take a 62 or 65 Cal. ball for ammo issue?
Thanks again to all that have replied. Paul.

 

[Shine]

I believe .65 was considered carbine bore