BP under crown is the provisional proof while the crossed scepters under a crown is the definitive proof, both for the Birmingham Proof House. 25 very probably would be the bore size measured in balls-per-pound, or .571". EH is probably the viewer or inspector's initials. The gun doesn't exhibit any military markings and appears built as a sporting arm.
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Help ID my old rifle
- Thread starter xanatos
- Start date
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Bannerman's in NY converted many CW muskets to smooth bores making them into hunting shotguns
True, but they would have marks for the rear sights and they wouldn't have had Birmingham proofs.Nor bottom barrel ribs. Nor would have been checkered or have been finished so well. I think this is original.
Told ya them marks would get us an answer.
I just want to thank all of you that contributed to my knowledge and appreciation of my really nice old firearm. It turned out to be a real piece of history for me, and I'll not let it fall by the wayside again. Truly appreciate all your knowledge and insight folks - thanks very much.
Dave
Dave
I've voting for a Northwest (Indian) Trade gun as peddled by the Hudson Bay Company.
See http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B014_Hanson.pdf
1) The term "Northwest Gun" was very common and generally used but it was by no means universal. These weapons have also been rod guides are ribbed and only rarely does a Northwest gun have a bottom thimble.
2) In Canada the Northwest gun held on for a long time. A percussion model using the Civil War Enfield lock was adopted by the Hudson's Bay Company in the 1860's but flintlocks were still purchased until 1886. Percussion Northwest guns are known to have been sold in the early years of the twentieth century. These ante-bellurn trade guns were sold in 30, 36, and 42-inch barrel lengths
3) On these latter pieces I can only voice a strong warning. The brass tack decorations have been faked un- mercifully, many jobs adding insult to injury through the use of 20th century plated steel tacks. A magnet will disclose these modern tacks but the deception I smuch harder to detect if genuine old cast brass furniture tacks have been used. If so, you may be able to tell something by lifting a few tacks to inspect the condition of the stock, etc. underneath. I'd like to add here that it is bad enough to thus dress up a genuine old trade gun in poor condition but it is even worse to add tacks and rawhide to a worthless shotgun or musket so that it will pass as an Indian relic. This is being done consistently and, in some cases, quite expertly
For what it's worth, I've read where some (Eastern) tribes would add brass tacks to their old weapons just to increase the 'authenticity' before they sold them to tourists. :grin:
Suggested book purchase
Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company,
1670 - 1970, S. James Gooding https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/278/1/BOOK-TGHBC
Chapter 5 The Percussion Trade Gun
The First Percussion Guns
Lovell's Pattern 1842
The Pattern 1853 Enfield
Fine Guns of Percussion Ignition
The Imperial Line of Percussion Guns
See http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/B014_Hanson.pdf
1) The term "Northwest Gun" was very common and generally used but it was by no means universal. These weapons have also been rod guides are ribbed and only rarely does a Northwest gun have a bottom thimble.
2) In Canada the Northwest gun held on for a long time. A percussion model using the Civil War Enfield lock was adopted by the Hudson's Bay Company in the 1860's but flintlocks were still purchased until 1886. Percussion Northwest guns are known to have been sold in the early years of the twentieth century. These ante-bellurn trade guns were sold in 30, 36, and 42-inch barrel lengths
3) On these latter pieces I can only voice a strong warning. The brass tack decorations have been faked un- mercifully, many jobs adding insult to injury through the use of 20th century plated steel tacks. A magnet will disclose these modern tacks but the deception I smuch harder to detect if genuine old cast brass furniture tacks have been used. If so, you may be able to tell something by lifting a few tacks to inspect the condition of the stock, etc. underneath. I'd like to add here that it is bad enough to thus dress up a genuine old trade gun in poor condition but it is even worse to add tacks and rawhide to a worthless shotgun or musket so that it will pass as an Indian relic. This is being done consistently and, in some cases, quite expertly
For what it's worth, I've read where some (Eastern) tribes would add brass tacks to their old weapons just to increase the 'authenticity' before they sold them to tourists. :grin:
Suggested book purchase
Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company,
1670 - 1970, S. James Gooding https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/278/1/BOOK-TGHBC
Chapter 5 The Percussion Trade Gun
The First Percussion Guns
Lovell's Pattern 1842
The Pattern 1853 Enfield
Fine Guns of Percussion Ignition
The Imperial Line of Percussion Guns
Last edited by a moderator:
The greatest majority of HBC surviving guns and their own records generally list 30" to 42" barrels. This gun's checkered wrist and fitted brass nose cap seem to say 'Gentleman's Sporting Gun'. There still seems to be a faint marking on the lock plate forward of the hammer screw. A wee bit of gentle rubbing with oiled leather might help it become more visible. Sure would like to know what it is!
They did offer a variety of standardized patterns. I'll have a look, but don't think that he references guns like the one in this thread. The late Jim Gooding's book is probably the best reference on HBC guns. The quoted passages from the Minute Books are particularly interesting.
mjones67713
Pilgrim
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2021
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Not in this thread.
You really need to start a new thread of it's own for us to get into discussing your gun. To start one, go to the index page and select the button that says, "Post thread". Give the new thread a name, write what you want to write and then poke the "Post thread" button at the bottom.
Before you make a new thread, make sure your gun is actually a muzzleloading gun. From what I see in the only picture that shows the gun in its entirety, it looks like some sort of breech loading guns. If the bore goes completely thru the barrel, it is a breech loader and we don't talk about those on the forum.
If it is a muzzleloading gun, the more pictures we see that show what the whole gun looks like, the better the chance that we'll be able to identify it.
