Help Identify Relic From Ireland

[Shooty McShootface]

Hi all.

I am posting in the hope of finding out some information on a relic that I found. The location is West of Ireland, an isolated farmhouse. I know that the occupant had taken part in the Rineen ambush in 1920 during the War of Independence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rineen_ambush

However, locals have told me that the household was very republican, so likely this ethos was carried over from previous generations. While cleaning up, I found a relic of what appears to be a muzzle loader in the rafters of an old cowshed. Badly degraded and rusted, the moving parts not found and the stock missing. I am thinking if this was a farmyard tool like a shotgun, or for hunting, it would likely not have been hidden outside in the rafters but kept inside the house. Yet, as a flintlock, it is too old for the War of Independence in the 20th century, rather an item from the 19th.

Can anyone help identify this rusted relic? The length of the barrel is 82.5cm or 32.5 inch, the top of barrel circa 2cm. Some more features, it has flat sides on the stock end, rounding toward the business end and a circular post sight. There appears to be a small protrusion to attach to the stock on the underside, and a percussion cap hole on the top right. I found a length of metal folded on three sides that seems to fit to the barrel. I would really enjoy to know what it is, if that is still possible. No manufacturer engravings or stamps are readable due to the rusted pitting.

Many thanks for your time and thoughts.

 

[mhb]

Not much can be said with any authority, considering the condition of the barrel, however: the barrel is not from a flintlock, having clear evidence of a percussion bolster and nipple at the breech end (it could have been converted from a flintlock barrel at some time, though). And it was, when last part of a working firearm, apparently a shotgun barrel, having a thin-walled muzzle and what looks like a shotgun bead front sight.

mhb - MIke

 

[2 shots]

agree with mhb. have you checked to see if its loaded? if not you should. cool find.

 

[BoomStick]

The standing or hooked breech with barrel keys says Fowler to me. Other piece is likely the barrel under rib, so this was a half stock. Might have been a fine English sporting gun in it's day, but there's not enough left to tell.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Thank you all for the responses. Can someone share an image of what this might have looked like? I do not know much about shotguns. The Fowler type, is it possible to link it to a timeframe? Or a cost for the sporting gun? I think there is a story here, and I would really like to dig into it. A high priced sporting shotgun would not belong in the original household.

I attach another picture as to why I thought it was a muzzle loader. As this protrusion is often on percussion cap pistols and rifles.

Thanks to all again!

 

[Shooty McShootface]

agree with mhb. have you checked to see if its loaded? if not you should. cool find.

Hard to say as it is so rusted. But I will treat it with additional care now

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Not much can be said with any authority, considering the condition of the barrel, however: the barrel is not from a flintlock, having clear evidence of a percussion bolster and nipple at the breech end (it could have been converted from a flintlock barrel at some time, though). And it was, when last part of a working firearm, apparently a shotgun barrel, having a thin-walled muzzle and what looks like a shotgun bead front sight.

mhb - MIke

Interesting - would that be normal to convert a gun? I was intrigued by the flat sides toward the user end, that rounded toward the shooting end. But makes sense, the metal apears too thin for a ball shot. The examples I have seen are indeed usually thicker.

 

[BoomStick]

Octagon to round was a common barrel feature of English sporting guns. Definitely a muzzleloader. Can't be certain if it started flint but most likely was made a percussion as rebreeching is a little more complicated than just screwing in a percussion drum. No expert, but my guess would be a commercial gun from 1810-1870.

 

[mhb]

I only mentioned that it could have been a conversion from flint as a possibility. Flintlock musket barrels were very commonly available from obsolete arms, and could be shortened and bored-out if desired (and if there was enough material in the original barrel to permit doing so) in making-up common and usually inexpensive shotguns. Even later, rifled percussion muskets were often smoothbored and sold cheaply as farm guns, etc., equally often without much external alteration as to stock and/or barrel length, etc. The fact that your example was apparently fitted with an underrib makes it perhaps more likely that it was originally made as a sporting shotgun, rather than a conversion. The very thin metal at the muzzle is often seen on M/L shotguns, due to wear from improper cleaning and/or careless loading, etc.

mhb - MIke

Interesting - would that be normal to convert a gun? I was intrigued by the flat sides toward the user end, that rounded toward the shooting end. But makes sense, the metal apears too thin for a ball shot. The examples I have seen are indeed usually thicker.

 

[TFoley]

I'm not a betting man, but I'm of the opinion that this has been up in the rafters since the end of the 19th century, when the illegal ownership, let alone use, of a firearm in Ireland would have landed the offender in the direst of danger, including a star appearance at a hanging.

After 1922, when most of Ireland had settled down after a short but bloody civil war, the ownership of shotguns, especially in rural areas, was more relaxed and the need to conceal them from the ravaging Brits was a thing of the past - hence my starting comment.

I'm also 100% sure that this was made as a percussion gun and was never a flintlock - the entire form of the breech end is in line with that belief.

It probably looked a lot like this -

Ní fear gealltóireachta mé, ach tá mé den tuairim go bhfuil sé seo in airde sna rachtaí ó dheireadh an 19ú haois, nuair a bheadh úinéireacht mhídhleathach, gan trácht ar úsáid, arm tine in Éirinn tar éis teacht i dtír ar an gciontóir. i gcontúirt, lena n-áirítear cuma réalta ar chrochta.

Tar éis 1922, nuair a bhí an chuid is mó d'Éirinn socraithe síos tar éis cogadh cathartha gairid ach fuilteach, bhí úinéireacht na ngunnaí, go háirithe i gceantair thuaithe, níos suaimhní agus bhí gá leis. rud ab ea iad a cheilt ó mhíleata na Breataine - mar sin mo thuairim tosaigh.

Tá mé 100% cinnte freisin gur mar ghunna cnaguirlisí a rinneadh é seo - tá cruth iomlán an bhrait ag teacht leis an gcreideamh sin.

Is dócha gur bhreathnaigh sé go leor mar seo -

 

[BoomStick]

Maybe something like this:
https://www.tooveys.com/lots/507137...zle-loading-percussion-sporting-gun-by-evans/

Although the linked gun above is a bit fancy for a barn gun, but the general look and such is probably right

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Thank you all. This has been very helpful. I was on the cusp of getting a roofer in... when I found this "piece of bar" sticking out. I think I will have a good look first.

I will also contact the local museum, as they may have more background. I am happy to provide it for display if it has any local historical value.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

I'm not a betting man, but I'm of the opinion that this has been up in the rafters since the end of the 19th century, when the illegal ownership, let alone use, of a firearm in Ireland would have landed the offender in the direst of danger, including a star appearance at a hanging.

After 1922, when most of Ireland had settled down after a short but bloody civil war, the ownership of shotguns, especially in rural areas, was more relaxed and the need to conceal them from the ravaging Brits was a thing of the past - hence my starting comment.

I'm also 100% sure that this was made as a percussion gun and was never a flintlock - the entire form of the breech end is in line with that belief.

It probably looked a lot like this -

Ní fear gealltóireachta mé, ach tá mé den tuairim go bhfuil sé seo in airde sna rachtaí ó dheireadh an 19ú haois, nuair a bheadh úinéireacht mhídhleathach, gan trácht ar úsáid, arm tine in Éirinn tar éis teacht i dtír ar an gciontóir. i gcontúirt, lena n-áirítear cuma réalta ar chrochta.

Tar éis 1922, nuair a bhí an chuid is mó d'Éirinn socraithe síos tar éis cogadh cathartha gairid ach fuilteach, bhí úinéireacht na ngunnaí, go háirithe i gceantair thuaithe, níos suaimhní agus bhí gá leis. rud ab ea iad a cheilt ó mhíleata na Breataine - mar sin mo thuairim tosaigh.

Tá mé 100% cinnte freisin gur mar ghunna cnaguirlisí a rinneadh é seo - tá cruth iomlán an bhrait ag teacht leis an gcreideamh sin.

Is dócha gur bhreathnaigh sé go leor mar seo -
View attachment 339037

Thank you for the detailed reply. I would presume, that in the WOI, that local republicans would have used any weapon available, particularly for barrack raids, including sporting shotguns. Anti-treaty civil war side would hide any firearm they had. I am now perplexed why it remained in the rafters until now.

 

[BoomStick]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I would presume, that in the WOI, that local republicans would have used any weapon available, particularly for barrack raids, including sporting shotguns. Anti-treaty civil war side would hide any firearm they had. I am now perplexed why it remained in the rafters until now.

Gun with a standing breech has easy barrel removal. The barrel and stock were apart, maybe the stock was broken or maybe the two were stored separated and unintentionally forgotten...would be quite the coincidence if your local museum says they've had this stock, but no barrel....

 

[TFoley]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I would presume, that in the WOI, that local republicans would have used any weapon available, particularly for barrack raids, including sporting shotguns. Anti-treaty civil war side would hide any firearm they had. I am now perplexed why it remained in the rafters until now.

By 1922, anybody taking on a barrack raid with a single-shot muzzleloading shotgun almost five feet long would be viewed as distinct liability. In 1921, when my father was busy helping to blow up police stations in Co. Cork, everybody seemed to be armed with Lee-Enfield rifles acquired from previous engagements.

If you are the one that found it, then it must have been well-hidden. You'd have to ask the person who hid it why he never went back for it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Whoever hid that relic in the roof rafters probably had his Lee-Enfield and no longer cared about the hidden single shot muzzleloader.

 

[bpd303]

Or like a lot of old muzzle loading barrels, it was used as a tomato stake and that would explain the severe rusting and why it was in the rafters.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Thank you for all the replies! This has been very helpful.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

By 1922, anybody taking on a barrack raid with a single-shot muzzleloading shotgun almost five feet long would be viewed as distinct liability. In 1921, when my father was busy helping to blow up police stations in Co. Cork, everybody seemed to be armed with Lee-Enfield rifles acquired from previous engagements.

If you are the one that found it, then it must have been well-hidden. You'd have to ask the person who hid it why he never went back for it.

It was indeed well hidden, a stone came loose between where the rafter joined the wall and I spotted a metal bar. THe original owners have long since passed and it change owners twice since. The tale is lost to history and probably was "acquired" and hidden during some previous turbulence.

 

[Shooty McShootface]

Or like a lot of old muzzle loading barrels, it was used as a tomato stake and that would explain the severe rusting and why it was in the rafters.

Surely not :-o