Help identifying “W Allport” octagonal barrel percussion cap rifle

[lee Buttrill]

Hello helpful people - a family friend asked me to examine an old rifle he has had in the family for at least 100 years as he wanted to know how old it really was and if it was loaded. I’m a modern fireman enthusiast, but have no knowledge about these types of weapons. Since I was only in town briefly, I had only about 30 minutes with the weapon.

I’m hoping to find some help here. I’ll be returning at Christmas with my tools to attempt to remove the barrel and look for additional markings. The only writing I was able to find during the first look at the weapon was “W Allport.” Doing some research, I did find information about a William Allport but was unable to locate any other weapons that bore his name alone.

My best guess is that it was a flintlock that was later converted to percussion cap due to the patch case in the stock. Just a guess though.

Any information would be appreciated along with suggestions for how to further investigate when I return to the weapon at Christmas.

Thanks in advance

PS my video of the weapon is too big. I’ll edit it down and upload it soon

 

[lee Buttrill]

Hello helpful people - a family friend asked me to examine an old rifle he has had in the family for at least 100 years as he wanted to know how old it really was and if it was loaded. I’m a modern fireman enthusiast, but have no knowledge about these types of weapons. Since I was only in town briefly, I had only about 30 minutes with the weapon.

I’m hoping to find some help here. I’ll be returning at Christmas with my tools to attempt to remove the barrel and look for additional markings. The only writing I was able to find during the first look at the weapon was “W Allport.” Doing some research, I did find information about a William Allport but was unable to locate any other weapons that bore his name alone.

My best guess is that it was a flintlock that was later converted to percussion cap due to the patch case in the stock. Just a guess though.

Any information would be appreciated along with suggestions for how to further investigate when I return to the weapon at Christmas.

Thanks in advance

PS my video of the weapon is too big. I’ll edit it down and upload it soon

Video of rifle

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Good Morning.

To check if it's loaded, put the ramrod down the barrel, then mark the ramrod where it exits the muzzle. Remove the ramrod and lay it along side the barrel and see where the tip of the ramrod is in comparison to the breech, using your mark as a reference against the edge of the muzzle. If it's not right at the location of the nipple, the rifle is likely loaded.

We need a photo of the muzzle, showing the size of the bore in relation to the thickness of the barrel. This will say a LOT about the rifle.

It appears in very good condition. The name that appears on the lock may be the name of the person who made the lock, but not necessarily the name of the fellow who made the rifle.

The rifle may be a "take down" version, and may be more modern than one would think. "Take down" versions of sporting and target rifles became rather popular after the ACW, and also among fellows in the 20th century who were, like us here at the Forum, into shooting old guns. The idea of the "take down" rifle was that it could easily come apart, the two parts being much shorter than the whole, allowing for the owner to more easily use a shorter case for the rifle. The shorter case then was much more convenient to travel.

I say it's a take down or may be, because of the obvious parting of the stock shown in the video. This is not a crack or break. This is deliberate.

What it might be worth, will be determined mostly from the condition of the bore. On Amazon you will find "inspection cameras" of about 5mm diameter, with a long cord. After checking the rifle for being loaded, you send the inspection camera down the barrel while it's being operated off your cell phone, laptop, or PC. This will allow folks to see if any corrosion has compromised the bore.

Good Luck

LD

 

[Phil Coffins]

Nice rifle with some un-usual features, the lock maybe a replacement but it was all ways a percussion. The hammer appears to be a replacement as the style is different than the lock. The gap in the forearm would be from shrinkage of the stock being made from two pieces. The placement of the keys are unusual most having the rear key in the area that the hand would support the rifle. The keys at the thimbles are strange. The full size patch box on a percussion isn’t unheard of uncommon. The rear sight may be backwards. I wonder too if it built after 1900 by an untrained person. I’ll be interested in seeing more photos to include the cheek side and top of the breech.

 

[Rancocas]

That lock has always been a percussion, just as Phil has said. A "patch box" is not an indicator that the gun is/was a flintlock. Lots of percussion guns also have patch boxes. They don't have to hold patches. Small tools such as a vent pick, jag, an extra flint, etc. can also be kept in a patch box.
Unusual ****/hammer.
Whether or not the lock is a replacement for the original, I cannot say, although it looks original to me.
Break down stocks as Loyalist Dave mentioned go back much further than the American War Between the States. I have an Austrian made flintlock fowler, c.1820, with the same basic type of take down break. Although, I will hazard a guess that your gun dates from the mid 1850's or later.
Important! Use Dave's method to check whether it is loaded or not. Guns that have been loaded for over 100 years can still go off. Surprise. Surprise.
We do need more pictures to really get an idea of what you have there. Any marks under the barrel, inside the lock, anywhere, are helpful, as is a full-length photo, etc.

 

[lee Buttrill]

Thanks all for your insight and advice. I actually did take a video of the bore using my dad’s camera for the purpose of checking to see if it was loaded. My guess was yes, but between having not looked inside a muzzleloader before and the quality of the image, I was still not sure. As a good Marine, I always treat it as if it is loaded and instructed the owner to do the same . Video attached.

When I go back at Christmas, I will bring my own bore camera that is a bit higher quality. I’ll take a better focused video of the bore along with pictures of the full rifle on both sides, the front of the bore, and any additional markings I can locate with more time to examine it. To that end, any words of advice on removing the barrel? I believe I remove the retaining pins under the barrel and then lift it out. Anything else I should know about how to take it apart without damaging the weapon?

Thanks again all!

 

[Phil Coffins]

If the breech has a hook system then removing the keys and lifting the barrel will work. But, if the breech and tang are one piece you will need to remove the tang screw or screws.
Your video leaves me guessing. Use the ramrod as suggested for a more positive method.

 

[lee Buttrill]

If the breech has a hook system then removing the keys and lifting the barrel will work. But, if the breech and tang are one piece you will need to remove the tang screw or screws.
Your video leaves me guessing. Use the ramrod as suggested for a more positive method.

Thanks. I’ll gather better images and information come Christmas

 

[Tanselman]

Your friend has a New England cherry-stocked rifle. It was originally a flintlock but has be altered to percussion. The strong oval tail of the lock plate, along with several open screw holes in the lock's front end, verify its original flint condition. The patchbox is distinctly New England, as is the cherry stock and single trigger. Even the guard is uniquely New England with its small teat on the guard's front extension [hard to see in images, but it's there]. It probably dates to ca. 1820 with the simpler 2-piece patchbox without side leaves on either side of the lid. The cut in the forestock looks like a simple repair of a broken/missing piece of forestock. If it were a traditional "take-down" two-piece stock, the joint would normally be farther to the rear.

Shelby Gallien

 

[lee Buttrill]

Your friend has a New England cherry-stocked rifle. It was originally a flintlock but has be altered to percussion. The strong oval tail of the lock plate, along with several open screw holes in the lock's front end, verify its original flint condition. The patchbox is distinctly New England, as is the cherry stock and single trigger. Even the guard is uniquely New England with its small teat on the guard's front extension [hard to see in images, but it's there]. It probably dates to ca. 1820 with the simpler 2-piece patchbox without side leaves on either side of the lid. The cut in the forestock looks like a simple repair of a broken/missing piece of forestock. If it were a traditional "take-down" two-piece stock, the joint would normally be farther to the rear.

Shelby Gallien

Thank you for this. I noted the holes in the lock and had the same thought regarding a potential conversion. I have today found a few locks online with the same “W Allport” mark and all but one were flintlocks. It sounds like William Allport did not make many locks with only his mark and so examples are few and far between.

As a fun aside, one set of W Allport pistols I found seem to be somewhat famous. https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...mounted-peter-kunz-flintlock-kentucky-pistols

I’m excited to remove the barrel and see if I can locate additional marks. Thanks again