Help Identifying Old Long Rifle

[Rustcollector]

I have waited many years to inherit this gun from my late grandfather and I finally have. It looks to me to be some version of the Kentucky Long Rifle. It has been in my family since it was new! I am the only grandson/relative that had any interest in history so it ended up with me.

According to my late grandad, this gun was owned by his ancestors, in particular one who was a bounty hunter before the civil war. He said that the family wasn't too proud of the relative but admired the gun. I have no documentation on this story, but supposively someone(s) met their fate at the end of this gun over 150 years ago. Family legend has it was run-away slaves or yankees when the gun was used in the war of northern aggression. I have no idea for sure. The gun has been in Georgia and Alabama for most of its life I believe.

Anyway, the only markings/name I can find on the rifle is the name "Robbins". The rifle is missing some parts and is rusty. It has been hanging on the wall in my grandparent's house for the last 52 years. The barrel has a plug in it. I remember asking my grandad about that and he told me it was put in there in the 1890s because his dad and uncles(who were kids then) tried to load and fire it. It is pretty beat up but relatively intact. The nipple for percussion caps looks like it could have been added to the rifle, maybe this was originally flintlock? I am a novice at these type of guns, so I need help. Trying to learn all I can, being that I'm a history buff but I've never owned anything this old before.

Rifle measures approx. 57" long
Barrel Lenght: 41.25" long
Brass strap added to reinforce crack in stock.

More photos: http://s782.photobucket.com/albums/yy108/Banjomountain/Kentucky Long Rifle/

 

[Mike Brooks]

The lock was flint at one time. The patch box tells me it was made in Pennsylvania after 1810 or so. I can't recall what school or county that patchbox design comes from. Somebody who knows kentuckies better than me will be able to tell you. Very nice piece of family history, take good care of it. :thumbsup:

 

[vtbuck223]

The War of Northern Aggression A very interesting rifle. The lock does look like it was originally flint but was it original to this rifle? The fit looks a little off...also there is only one sidelock screw. The rear sight looks a little later. I really like the piece under the cheek rest. The only Robbins I found reference to was in NY state around 1870...but my resources are limited. Also based upon the view down the barrel it looks like someone turned it into a pea shooter.

 

[Coot]

For what it's worth, Kauffman's "Early American Gunsmiths" shows only one Robbins but this one was in Windsor, Vermont, in 1844. Became Windsor Car (Carriage??) & Rifle in 1849, became Robbins & Lawrence in 1850.

 

[troutabout]

That's a vent pick holder under the cheek rest.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Robbins was the english lock maker and has nothing to do with the location of where the rifle was made.

 

[Rustcollector]

I know it looks like it was used as a pea shooter, but I believe that little hole in the plug is from where someone tried to drill out the plug.

 

[vtbuck223]

There appears to be a letter preceeding "Robbins" which might go a long way in determining who made the lock. Can you make it out....or get a close up picture of it? Does anyone have anything on a Robbins English lockmaker? It might be possible that this is also the name of an American retailer?

 

[Captjoel]

The side plate "anchor" I have seen many times on rifles and fowlers that were made in the state of New York. I've also seen the same patchbox used on New York guns as well. What has me a bit unsure about this piece is the brass pick holder under the cheek rest. I would take a guess that being used in the south for much of it's working life, the holder may have been added later by the rifles owner.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The War of Northern Aggression

It is a Pennsylvania longrifle and had nothing to do with the American Civil War. Use of any longrifle by the military of either side was extremely rare, especially by Northern state troops.

 

[arw22lr]

I agree with Captjoel, the design of patchbox & lockbolt plate are common on NY rifles of that era. It probably is a NY rifle.

Also the way the patch box is made, with a "surround" instead of sideplates and finial, and no rolled hinge for the box lid (which is what the photo seems to show), are seen on NY rifles. (Rolled hinges were also used).

It is a nice rifle. The box engraving is interesting; many weren't engraved. I've read that a gunsmith John Caswell, of Lansingburgh, NY, shipped rifles to southern states, much to the later dismay of Union soldiers.

 

[Rustcollector]

I realize this rifle predates the civil war a good bit and I didn't mean to cause confusion with the term "war of northern aggression". My grandad was an old-timer and that is what he jokingly called it.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The War of Northern Aggression

I'm sure he ment that in jest. Just as Major Anderson, the C.O. at Ft. Sumpter, endured two hours of bombardment from the Confederate batteries before realizing they weren't joking or likely to apologize and had, in fact, started a shootin war and gave the order to return fire.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The War of Northern Aggression

It is a Pennsylvania longrifle and had nothing to do with the American Civil War. Use of any longrifle by the military of either side was extremely rare, especially by Northern state troops.

But I wouldn't discount the possibility of its use by militia. In western Virginia many militia troops were armed with civilian rifles and shotguns especially early on in the War. I'm reading a book now by Lt. John Blue called "The Hanging Rock Rebel" where he mentions in several places where most of the militia in his area were armed with "home rifles" and shotguns.

At the same time although this rifle was no doubt around at the time, we can't assume that it was used in the War though the possibility exists.
:hmm:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The War of Northern Aggression

It is a Pennsylvania longrifle and had nothing to do with the American Civil War. Use of any longrifle by the military of either side was extremely rare, especially by Northern state troops.

But I wouldn't discount the possibility of its use by militia. In western Virginia many militia troops were armed with civilian rifles and shotguns especially early on in the War. I'm reading a book now by Lt. John Blue called "The Hanging Rock Rebel" where he mentions in several places where most of the militia in his area were armed with "home rifles" and shotguns.

At the same time although this rifle was no doubt around at the time, we can't assume that it was used in the War though the possibility exists.
:hmm:

KR, you are of course correct about the militia's use of civilian firearms but they rarely did serious service with the regular or provisional army. True, in some remote areas like Southwest Virgnia they were called out for action and saw minor skirmishing but....

In the early war period some longrifles were carried into initial service by recruits but they were replaced as soon as possible as you well know. The Confederate regulars who saw 99.99% of the fighting were never so desperate for standard arms that they had to "make do" with completely inferior weapons.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Rustcollector, it is a very interesting rifle and one you can be proud of. I am sorry to have taken the thread off topic. :redface:

 

[Rustcollector]

Oh no, don't worry about it. I am glad it has caused some discussion and debate among forum members(in a good way). I really wish I knew more about this gun's history, but I've said all I know and that is just what my grandad used to say about it.

It seems most likely to me that this long rifle made its way from somewhere up north(PA or NY) down south to Georgia well over 150 years ago. It probably was used for various things until it was considered obsolete. As far as did it see action in the civil war? I doubt it but who knows? This gun was in what was once a very remote, backwoods part of Ga and could've been used up through the 1860s. Folks in the backwoods would use stuff as long as they could because either it was hard to acquire new stuff(distance or lack of funds). I'm just glad that I have some stories to go with it whether they're 100% truth or some tall tales. And it continues to stay in the same family. I have a few other relics from the same family that owned this gun, including a civil war canteen.

 

[Zonie]

Although not an exact match, the patchbox is very similar to the work of John Moore, Albany, New York as shown in "KENTUCKY RIFLE PATCHBOXES, ALL NEW VOLUME 2", CHANDLER & WHISKER, 1962, Old Bedford Village, Press, Bedford, Pa. Patchbox # 291.

The engraving is different but all of the general shapes of the exterior and piercings seem to match fairly closely.

The dates given for John Moore in the book indicate he was building from 1820 thru 1835.

I agree that the brass inlay under the cheek piece is for holding a vent pick.
These, IMO were seldom used for Percussion guns which would seem to indicate the gun was originally a Flintlock.

Of course the Moore speculation is just a guess but just for information, the book "AMERICAN FIREARMS MAKERS" by A. Merwyn Carey, 1953 has 3 listings for a John Moore.

"Moore, John 1803-1820. Shop located at 40 Mulberry Street, New York, New York. General gunsmith."

"Moore, John about 1835. General gunsmith at 11 Beaver Street, Albany, New York."

"Moore, John P. about 1823-1846. Located at 302 Broadway, New York, New York. Made flintlock holster and dueling pistols and, later, percussion pistols and rifles. His son, George G. Moore, and two grandsons, Henry M. Richards and John P. Richards carried on the business as gunsmiths and dealers at same location until 1888."

I believe the second John Moore is the one referred to by Dr. Whisker.

 

[vtbuck223]

I'm still not convinced that this rifle is as old as everyone is assuming...or that it was originally flint. As I understand it...flint rifles of this period were not usually made with one sidelock screw. The lock that is on it is obviously a replacement and appears to have been flint at one time...but that doesn't mean the original lock was either. Am I wrong here...were some makers of early flints from this period using only a single lock screw?

 

[suzkat]

One sideplate screw would lead me to believe originally percussion. Never saw a flinter without the second screwhole.