Help identifying this 18th century (?) musket (PICS)

[jtb33]

I picked this one up as a wall-hanger decoration for my Americana/Patriot-themed office, but I'd like to know as much about it as I can. I know it's a mixmaster... and I bought it from an individual, but after getting it, I see that he (or someone else) originally got it from Ancestry Guns, based on some internet searches.

I got this for $1200 out the door - but not from Ancestry. From the brief research I did, it seems that it was sold originally by Ancestry Guns, and in fact, I ganked their pics rather than try to take my own crappy ones, but I am happy to take new pics if it would help in ID'ing anything. Here's the ad I found for it when I was researching it (after I got it) based on the item number that was included with the "certificate of authenticity" that the seller passed on to me from Ancestry.

Link: Antique CHARLEVILLE Pattern .69 Cal. FLINTLOCK Musket w British Tower LockLate-18th French-British Fusion MILITARY MUSKET

While I don't know much about muskets or Charlevilles, I think that the lock looks like a Brown Bess 3rd model India pattern. I didn't really question a whole lot on it; price seemed fair for what I was after and I didn't see anything suggesting that Ancestry Guns was not legit other than people mentioning that they over-price a lot of their stuff.

BTW, there doesn't appear to be any arsenal, proof or date marks on the barrel other than a small triangle visible in pic #6. if the barrel is modern, someone did a hell of a job on the bore inside it, all the way down. It looks worse (albeit serviceable) than most of my old WWI era C&R rifles when I used my borescope to look down it.

The front sight blade is definitely brass.
The bayonet lug is on the top of the barrel.
The only markings I can see on the visible part of the barrel is what appears to be a small triangle just forward of the frizzen on the barrel (visible in Pic 6), but there is some pitting on the top of the barrel adjacent to the pan.
I assumed the sling was modern; or relatively so. The leather is very supple and there aren't any real wear marks on it, but a good amount of green corrosion near the hardware on the sling (not the musket).

I can take further pics, including of the inside of the bore if it will help.

More pics here -----> 18th Century Charleville Pattern Musket

 

[nit wit]

I think you did well.
Nit Wit

 

[jtb33]

Thanks. Hoping to get some input from members here as to help identify what it actually is...

I'm not sure if the Ancestry description is spot-on, or if they used some latitude...

 

[Flintlock1640]

It is all French but the late lock which is post 1800. The lock was probably added when it was reconverted. It needs an early 1770s lock, pre 1777 with rounded lock and iron rounded flat pan

 

[Clark Badgett]

It is all French but the late lock which is post 1800. The lock was probably added when it was reconverted. It needs an early 1770s lock, pre 1777 with rounded lock and iron rounded flat pan

Not French at all. The stock is the classic 1816 profile, lock is the second India pattern Bess.

 

[Flintlock1640]

Not French at all. The stock is the classic 1816 profile, lock is the second India Pattern Bess

Aren't American barrels all round? I thought this was French 1772 or 1774 which have this style furniture and have less comb than the 1766. I could be wrong I don't deal in early American stuff it's too modern but lack of proofs would be surprising for an American gun as deep as they are

 

[Clark Badgett]

Aren't American barrels all round? I thought this was French 1772 or 1774 which have this style furniture and have less comb than the 1766. I could be wrong I don't deal in early American stuff it's too modern but lack of proofs would be surprising for an American gun as deep as they are

The French never used that stock profile. The barrel isn’t original to the stock, and with exception of the side flats that barrel is full round. The 1816 is probably my most favorite American musket, I know them fairly well.

 

[jtb33]

Interesting... so the description from Ancestry Guns is completely wrong?

Some questions: the barrel has no markings on it that I can see other than what may be a triangle (pic 6). Seems a bit odd... thoughts? I did use a borescope and there is a good amount of corrosion on the inside of the barrel.
So this is a model 1816? That's a Springfield made musket, no? A lot of them were converted to percussion, right?
Are the barrel bands also from an 1816?

Anything else of note on this?

Did I get hosed for $1200?

 

[Clark Badgett]

Interesting... so the description from Ancestry Guns is completely wrong?

Some questions: the barrel has no markings on it that I can see other than what may be a triangle (pic 6). Seems a bit odd... thoughts? I did use a borescope and there is a good amount of corrosion on the inside of the barrel.
So this is a model 1816? That's a Springfield made musket, no? A lot of them were converted to percussion, right?
Are the barrel bands also from an 1816?

Anything else of note on this?

Did I get hosed for $1200?

1. If Ancestry guns represented it as anything other than a parts gun they misrepresented it. Even a simple intenet search would have revealed what this is.
2. Who knows what that barrel is or when it was replaced. I’ll look through my references after work and see if there are some contractor variations that used the marking you describe.
3. Yes the stock is and furnishings are of the 1816 pattern. The trigger guard is a type 1.
4. Springfield and Harpers Ferry made them, and I’m thinking there were contractors as well.
5. I have no idea the value of old muskets anymore. I’ve not looked at them with collectability in mind in over 20 years. I can say that I wouldn’t have payed $1200 for it myself, especially if the barrel isn’t original. We already know the lock isn’t.

 

[springfield art]

I picked this one up as a wall-hanger decoration for my Americana/Patriot-themed office, but I'd like to know as much about it as I can. I know it's a mixmaster... and I bought it from an individual, but after getting it, I see that he (or someone else) originally got it from Ancestry Guns, based on some internet searches.

I got this for $1200 out the door - but not from Ancestry. From the brief research I did, it seems that it was sold originally by Ancestry Guns, and in fact, I ganked their pics rather than try to take my own crappy ones, but I am happy to take new pics if it would help in ID'ing anything. Here's the ad I found for it when I was researching it (after I got it) based on the item number that was included with the "certificate of authenticity" that the seller passed on to me from Ancestry.

Link: Antique CHARLEVILLE Pattern .69 Cal. FLINTLOCK Musket w British Tower LockLate-18th French-British Fusion MILITARY MUSKET

While I don't know much about muskets or Charlevilles, I think that the lock looks like a Brown Bess 3rd model India pattern. I didn't really question a whole lot on it; price seemed fair for what I was after and I didn't see anything suggesting that Ancestry Guns was not legit other than people mentioning that they over-price a lot of their stuff.

BTW, there doesn't appear to be any arsenal, proof or date marks on the barrel other than a small triangle visible in pic #6. if the barrel is modern, someone did a hell of a job on the bore inside it, all the way down. It looks worse (albeit serviceable) than most of my old WWI era C&R rifles when I used my borescope to look down it.

The front sight blade is definitely brass.
The bayonet lug is on the top of the barrel.
The only markings I can see on the visible part of the barrel is what appears to be a small triangle just forward of the frizzen on the barrel (visible in Pic 6), but there is some pitting on the top of the barrel adjacent to the pan.
I assumed the sling was modern; or relatively so. The leather is very supple and there aren't any real wear marks on it, but a good amount of green corrosion near the hardware on the sling (not the musket).

I can take further pics, including of the inside of the bore if it will help.

More pics here -----> 18th Century Charleville Pattern Musket

View attachment 277332

I've purchased a couple of repro muzzleloaders that were older (25 yrs. or so) but had never been fired. I think your idea of using them for display and atmosphere is something that people do from time to time, and eventually the guns wind up being sold. Nice photo, looks great!

 

[Clark Badgett]

I just looked through my copies if Schmidt’s, Moller’s and Rielly’s works. None if them mention any small triangle markings on any barrels of arsenal or contractor known examples. The mystery continues.

 

[jtb33]

Appreciate the help from everyone here. For all I know, perhaps that's just a nick in the barrel that coincidentally happened to look like a triangle.

However, if it was someone's intent to 'fake' a barrel, you'd think that putting fake armory stamps and date on it would be one of the easier things to do...

Would it help if I posted a video or pics of the bore using my borescope camera?

 

[Clark Badgett]

Appreciate the help from everyone here. For all I know, perhaps that's just a nick in the barrel that coincidentally happened to look like a triangle.

However, if it was someone's intent to 'fake' a barrel, you'd think that putting fake armory stamps and date on it would be one of the easier things to do...

Would it help if I posted a video or pics of the bore using my borescope camera?

Probably not an attempt at fakery. Even as little as 50 years ago, original musket parts could be had fairly inexpensively. If the intention was fakery, there would have been a little better try at finding an 1816 lock and ram rod. Since the lock has a modern flash guard, I’m gonna surmise that this was simply someone’s attempt at building a shooter for recreation. Someone back in the 60s probably enjoyed shooting the snot out of that thing.

Have you disassembled it and taken a look at the bottom of the barrel?

 

[Sam squanch]

Ancestry guns is very optimistic on their descriptions and prices….

 

[jtb33]

Have you disassembled it and taken a look at the bottom of the barrel?

I'm a bit nervous to disassemble it in that I don't know what I'm doing with muskets. I'd be afraid that I'd damage the stock, or screws or something...