Help in Identifying Muzzleloader

[klergator]

Recently purchased through Gunbroker.com a muzzleloader, supposedly .640 bore diameter although using a micrometer the inside diameter is .633, converted from flintlock to percussion. Stock forearm has been shortened, fitted with tulip ramrod. Neither the barrel nor the lock is marked. On the trigger guard and butt plate there are matched markings, the first mark appears as either a circle with an arrow on the left side or possibly the letter O followed by the numbers 43 (O43)? The barrel measures 36".

 

[desi23]

Appears to be an old military musket, forend cut down and ramrod loops fitted for use as a sporting gun. Probably smooth bored as well. Lock and bolster are similar to an Enfield, could have begun life as a contract piece from Britain or Belgium. Many of these guns were modified in the years after they went out of service. Sears and Bannermans were still selling these as inexpensive farmers guns into the early 1900's. If there are any marking left on the barrel (some will have markings on the underside as well) they could identify country of origin.

 

[hawkeye2]

A European, possibly Belgian, military musket converted to a civilian shotgun. It never was a flintlock. Desi23 is correct.

 

[klergator]

Appears to be an old military musket, forend cut down and ramrod loops fitted for use as a sporting gun. Probably smooth bored as well. Lock and bolster are similar to an Enfield, could have begun life as a contract piece from Britain or Belgium. Many of these guns were modified in the years after they went out of service. Sears and Bannermans were still selling these as inexpensive farmers guns into the early 1900's. If there are any marking left on the barrel (some will have markings on the underside as well) they could identify country of origin.

Thanks for the info. The only marking on the exterior of the gun are the O43(?) as mentioned before. Have not attempted to disassemble but may do that with the help of either a gunsmith or someone more familiar with black powder weapons. Without disassembling what would you recommend to clean the inside of the smoothbore? Thanks.

 

[klergator]

A European, possibly Belgian, military musket converted to a civilian shotgun. It never was a flintlock. Desi23 is correct.

Thanks for the confirmation. Any idea as to time frame it may have been produced? Any suggestions on what to use in cleaning the inside of the barrel without disassembling? Thanks.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I believe you have an 1850s or 1860s Austrian musket that was turned into a smooth bore. It may be the Lorenz model but I cannot tell for sure. Many were imported to the US during the Civil War and possibly sporterized afterwards.

dave

 

[klergator]

Hi,
I believe you have an 1850s or 1860s Austrian musket that was turned into a smooth bore. It may be the Lorenz model but I cannot tell for sure. Many were imported to the US during the Civil War and possibly sporterized afterwards.

dave

Dave,
Thanks for your input. What would I look for to verify if it the Lorenz model? Any suggestions as to what to use to clean the inside of the barrel? The firing mechanism works ok and I’m not planning on firing but would like to clean up. Not a lot of rust for a weapon that old.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

This is indeed a Lorenz. It is actually a more uncommon version in that it is a commercial variant of the Muster 1862 Rifle-Musket and not the more common Muster 1854 Rifle-Musket. The main difference is that the lock of the M1854 has a shoulder in front of the bolster which is not present on the M1862. The lock shape of the M1862 is often compared to the British P1853 series and referred to as "Enfield shaped".
True Muster 1862 Rifle-Muskets were made at the Austrian government arsenal in Vienna. The parts are fully interchangeable, where as the M1854 was hand made and the parts will not interchange. Your musket is a commercial version of the M1862, so it was a lock of the new shape, but it was contractor and not interchangeable. If you look carefully at the lock you will notice some circles on its face; these are plugged holes that show the lock was originally from an Austrian M1842 musket, or one of the other tube lock or even older flintlocks. The contractor who made this gun recycled and reprofiled the old lock on this musket. The stock also lacks the cheek rest found on guns built for the Austrian government. This was a cost saving measure found on some export guns that allowed the stocker to used a thinner slab of wood. Lastly, though your musket now has a smoothbore it was likely finished with a nominally .58 caliber bore with 4 groove rifling.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If you look carefully at the lock you will notice some circles on its face; these are plugged holes that show the lock was originally from an Austrian M1842 musket, or one of the other tube lock or even older flintlocks. The contractor who made this gun recycled and reprofiled the old lock on this musket.

Here you can see two of the circles.

LD

 

[dave_person]

Hi Phil,
I've seen the same Ketland hardware on a couple of other New England fowlers but do not have photos. They were from the early 19th century. There are also NE fowlers in which the American maker tried to copy or simulate the Ketland design using sheet brass. NE 47 in Grinslade's book is an example of that.

dave

 

[klergator]

This is indeed a Lorenz. It is actually a more uncommon version in that it is a commercial variant of the Muster 1862 Rifle-Musket and not the more common Muster 1854 Rifle-Musket. The main difference is that the lock of the M1854 has a shoulder in front of the bolster which is not present on the M1862. The lock shape of the M1862 is often compared to the British P1853 series and referred to as "Enfield shaped".
True Muster 1862 Rifle-Muskets were made at the Austrian government arsenal in Vienna. The parts are fully interchangeable, where as the M1854 was hand made and the parts will not interchange. Your musket is a commercial version of the M1862, so it was a lock of the new shape, but it was contractor and not interchangeable. If you look carefully at the lock you will notice some circles on its face; these are plugged holes that show the lock was originally from an Austrian M1842 musket, or one of the other tube lock or even older flintlocks. The contractor who made this gun recycled and reprofiled the old lock on this musket. The stock also lacks the cheek rest found on guns built for the Austrian government. This was a cost saving measure found on some export guns that allowed the stocker to used a thinner slab of wood. Lastly, though your musket now has a smoothbore it was likely finished with a nominally .58 caliber bore with 4 groove rifling.

Great information. Thanks so much. I did find the circles on the face of the lock. I would like to try and clean up the inside of the barrel. Do you have a suggestion or recommendation as to what to use to do that without trying to disassemble the gun? I live in a somewhat remote area of West Central Montana with no local gunsmiths.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Search online for contact information for the Montana Historical Gunmaker's Guild.

dave

 

[EC121]

First make sure it isn't loaded by running the rod down the barrel and feeling it hit the breechplug or put it down the barrel and mark the rod then lay it on the outside of the barrel to see if the rod goes all the way to the breech end when the mark is at the muzzle. . Put the hammer at halfcock, remove the barrel band and tang screw, remove the two lock screws and remove the lock. You then have disassembled the gun. Not a big deal.

 

[Sam squanch]

Looks like mine. If the bore is ok, it will be fun to shoot. Lots of dead squirrels with mine.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Great information. Thanks so much. I did find the circles on the face of the lock. I would like to try and clean up the inside of the barrel. Do you have a suggestion or recommendation as to what to use to do that without trying to disassemble the gun? I live in a somewhat remote area of West Central Montana with no local gunsmiths.

You're quite welcome. Glad to be helpful.

As @EC121 says, to remove the barrel all you need to do is remove the tang screw and the barrel band. Just make sure your screw driver is a good fit; hollow ground ones are best.
If you don't want to pull the barrel cover the cone (nipple) with some felt or a small piece of leather to block it. Check to see it isn't loaded and then brush the bore out with a wire brush. Switch to an oil or black powder solvent and patch until it is clean, or as clean as it gets, and then finish it off with a clean oiled patch. I like Ballistol myself. It stinks, but is a great product. A lot of antique guys use it exclusively.