Help me identify this beautiful flintlock rifle, please.

[donshively55]

I bought this flintlock musket at a tractor museum auction. A member's widow had donated it.

Two teenagers picked it up and proclaimed they would buy it, take it "out back" and fill it "fulla Daddy's black powder and shoot it off".

Lord!

I picked it off of the display table. It only weighed 4 and a half pounds. My 1863 Springfield weighs NINE! It was 65 inches ... about half a foot ... too LONG. Hmmmm. I had my machinist's calipers in my pocket and the really thin barrel muzzle measured .61 caliber.

"About 22 Bore", I've been told.

I cocked the big lock's hammer back, thumbed the frizzen foward with a satisfying snap and saw the tiny, SQUARE shaped touch hole, sitting right where it oughta be ... at the base of the firing pan.

Yet, somehow the metal did not look "hardened". The hammer's top "lip" seemed to have a small "ding" in it, as if someone had dry fired it with no flint. Hardened steel would not do this, right?

One of the kids did dry fire it that day and got a very satisfying shower of sparks from the flint.

Square touch hole? Wouldn't that crack under pressure?

I blew down the muzzle and felt it expel my breath ... Yeah. It would fire. But something was wrong.

It looked like a repro of "Tecumseh's Trade Rifle" found on the NRA website. But that real trade rifle had a small hunting lock.

This huge, wonderful lock is the size found on a military Brown Bess musket. The musket weighed too little, was about 6 inches "too long" and the finish was like that on a "nice BB gun".

It has no barrel bands, being pinned to the stock. It has a 3/4 " wide, cheap brass strip, rather like decoration, that goes around the wood and under the barrel at the muzzle. This very even strip of brass seems modern. Looks like Pakistani "brass belt ornament" quality.

I had to pay $140 to outbid the two teens. But I kept them from blowing themselves up.

After I got it home, changed the cracked flint and really looked at it, the only marking I could find was a very tiny "22" near the barrel plug.

So, maybe it was "22 Bore"! I thought.

I am guessing that it may be a "functioning movie prop", intended to make a proper "Fizz-Bang!" for the cameras.

Perhaps the 65" length was a Hollywood exaggeration. Perhaps 4.5 pounds was easier for the hired cast of Indians to stand around with all day making movies.

Please help me identify it if you can.


Don Shively

 

[rchas]

It looks like a northwest trade gun, although the lock is wrong.

What does the side plate look like? Any proofmark or makers stamps-- they might be on the bottom of the barrel?

If it's proofed and otherwise in good condition I would try shooting it. Fowler barrels don't have to be heavy to be safe Fowler barrels made today have been ""lawyer-ized" and are way heavier than they need to be.

I will say the first few shots might be with the gun tied into a tire and trigger pulled with a string....

 

[Brokennock]

I can't answer your question. But, I think that gun is pretty cool.
That brass band was found on some trade guns.
Is the buttplate and trigger guard nailed on or pinned and screwed?
Too light? Sounds like a fantastic weight to hunt with.
Too long? I see a lot of reports of original trade guns and fowlers with barrels much longer than seem standard today. Barrels made now seem to be standardized at a few certain (shorter than often historically correct) lengths for ease of production. I read of builders wanting to make truly historically accurate copies of Club Butt Fowlers/trade guns, Fusil des Chase and Fusil des Fin, guns having to custom order barrels in the correct lengths.
The only issue I see with that long barrel is that the ramrod is too short.



No matter what it is or who made it, thank you for saving it from being blown up.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I think it may have been made recently.

 

[hawkeye2]

I would put my money on a trade gun made for the African trade and anytime in the last century. Is the lock plate aluminum? Stoger's and a lot of others sold these from the 1940s on. It's possible someone bought yours as a wall hanger as it doesn't look to have been fired. It really looks good as a decorative piece.

 

[hanshi]

Any gun that comes to my house gets fired, period. If it's a true "non-shootable" piece then on a display it goes. But that one looks like it wants to be shot.

 

[ord sgt]

20 gauge is .615". So not a 22 bore. It does look like a reproduction.

 

[Mulebrain]

I get the feeling this may be an import. I would unscrew everything, and pull the barrel to look for any markings

 

[flintlock lover.]

I bought this flintlock musket at a tractor museum auction. A member's widow had donated it.

Two teenagers picked it up and proclaimed they would buy it, take it "out back" and fill it "fulla Daddy's black powder and shoot it off".

Lord!

I picked it off of the display table. It only weighed 4 and a half pounds. My 1863 Springfield weighs NINE! It was 65 inches ... about half a foot ... too LONG. Hmmmm. I had my machinist's calipers in my pocket and the really thin barrel muzzle measured .61 caliber.

"About 22 Bore", I've been told.

I cocked the big lock's hammer back, thumbed the frizzen foward with a satisfying snap and saw the tiny, SQUARE shaped touch hole, sitting right where it oughta be ... at the base of the firing pan.

Yet, somehow the metal did not look "hardened". The hammer's top "lip" seemed to have a small "ding" in it, as if someone had dry fired it with no flint. Hardened steel would not do this, right?

One of the kids did dry fire it that day and got a very satisfying shower of sparks from the flint.

Square touch hole? Wouldn't that crack under pressure?

I blew down the muzzle and felt it expel my breath ... Yeah. It would fire. But something was wrong.

It looked like a repro of "Tecumseh's Trade Rifle" found on the NRA website. But that real trade rifle had a small hunting lock.

This huge, wonderful lock is the size found on a military Brown Bess musket. The musket weighed too little, was about 6 inches "too long" and the finish was like that on a "nice BB gun".

It has no barrel bands, being pinned to the stock. It has a 3/4 " wide, cheap brass strip, rather like decoration, that goes around the wood and under the barrel at the muzzle. This very even strip of brass seems modern. Looks like Pakistani "brass belt ornament" quality.

I had to pay $140 to outbid the two teens. But I kept them from blowing themselves up.

After I got it home, changed the cracked flint and really looked at it, the only marking I could find was a very tiny "22" near the barrel plug.

So, maybe it was "22 Bore"! I thought.

I am guessing that it may be a "functioning movie prop", intended to make a proper "Fizz-Bang!" for the cameras.

Perhaps the 65" length was a Hollywood exaggeration. Perhaps 4.5 pounds was easier for the hired cast of Indians to stand around with all day making movies.

Please help me identify it if you can.


Don Shively

Looks (to me) like a possibility Belgian reproduction of the early Dutch NY area trade guns? The reproductions from Belgium tend to not have careful wood to metal fit, so if it is truly well made then you might have a handmade copy of such a NY musket. Which might also explain why there are no markings or proofs on the barrel.
Hints to the type of gun being how far the sight is positioned from the muzzle and the length of the barrel that is in too light a gauge to be a commercial water fowl gun.
Neat looking gun.
I met a gentleman at The Alafi rendezvous (FL) in 1993 who made such guns and other styles. Buying only the barrels, he made the locks by hand, sourced wood by the plank and even made the screws as I remember.
He went by the name of "Sabo", made whatever style gun he was in the mood to and I found him once in the showers there with two women about half his age. He was in his mid-60's then I'd guess.
Spent my week there drinking whiskey around his fire at night and admiring his guns on his trade blanket during the day.
Finally bought one of his early English muskets before I left.

 

[Eterry]

Don't let the light weight concern you. When I went to The Rifle Shoppe Jesse had his Bench Copy of Louis XIV's Fusil De Chasse and ib got to handle it. It was amazingly light and lively. IIRC it was 24 bore.

I would inspect the barrel, through bore light and check the plug area. Ive has to use magnifier glasses to find proof marks often.

If your satisfied After that I'd drop 30grs fffg and pack a Wad of paper and let rip. Work your way up to 60grs each of powder and shot.

That's what i did with my William Moore double 12.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

This looks somewhat like what we used to call a "Zulu gun", but those were breech-loading conversions usually of Belgian manufacture if memory serves. I agree with an above post... it looks like an African marketed gun. Be very careful about firing it.

 

[OldSmoky1967]

Don't let the light weight concern you. When I went to The Rifle Shoppe Jesse had his Bench Copy of Louis XIV's Fusil De Chasse and ib got to handle it. It was amazingly light and lively. IIRC it was 24 bore.

I would inspect the barrel, through bore light and check the plug area. Ive has to use magnifier glasses to find proof marks often.

If your satisfied After that I'd drop 30grs fffg and pack a Wad of paper and let rip. Work your way up to 60grs each of powder and shot.

That's what i did with my William Moore double 12.

Use a bore scope. See if it has been fired. Are there powder residue marks on that lock?

 

[Eterry]

Unfortunately the OP has not been back since his first post. We may never know what he did with it or what he learned about the smoothbore.

 

[Rudyard]

I can't answer your question. But, I think that gun is pretty cool.
That brass band was found on some trade guns.
Is the buttplate and trigger guard nailed on or pinned and screwed?
Too light? Sounds like a fantastic weight to hunt with.
Too long? I see a lot of reports of original trade guns and fowlers with barrels much longer than seem standard today. Barrels made now seem to be standardized at a few certain (shorter than often historically correct) lengths for ease of production. I read of builders wanting to make truly historically accurate copies of Club Butt Fowlers/trade guns, Fusil des Chase and Fusil des Fin, guns having to custom order barrels in the correct lengths.
The only issue I see with that long barrel is that the ramrod is too short.



No matter what it is or who made it, thank you for saving it from being blown up.

'Got up' nothing of any importance or age would be my guess .Good on you to save yobos doing them selves damage . Rudyard's guess