help on flux

[Tim Wilkinson]

I am fairly new to bullet casting and I am getting mixxed opinions on flux..should it flame or should it only smoke? Like I said I have heard both..need more info please.
I am using parafin wax,like used in home canning,but I just got my hand on some natural bee's wax..what would be best?
I have been casting bullets with flame after flux and with smoke only after flux and they all look good to me..using pure lead for conicals..any help on this is good...thanx

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use the beeswax. The flux is to consolidate microscopic particles in suspension and bring them to the surface of the molten lead,where they can be removed as " Dross ". A stainless steel spoon does a good job of removing the dross. Toss it into a tin can, for disposal. It can take you years to fill that can up with dross, so just leave it around on the bench next to your casting pot. It gives you a good place to leave that spoon and not lose it.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

I don't flux at all. If you use something that has paraffin in it to flux with, paraffin is flammable and you'll get flame on top of your lead. Other types of wax smoke heavily. Back to non-fluxing. I don't like the smoke filling up the garage. Think about fluxing for a minute. When you add flux when you solder, the idea is to get the lead solder to stick to what you are soldering. When you flux lead, supposedly it is supposed to bring the impurities to the top. NOT !! It may bring a little, but lead being heavier will pin the dirt to the bottom and sides of your lead pot. When you flux, you are making the dirt stick to the lead like you are making solder stick to a wire. So now you have dirty lead that is holding the dirt in suspension throughout your lead because you fluxed. You don't see any dirt now because it is stuck to the lead and you are convinced your lead is clean !! If you run your lead pot around the 700 to 725 degree mark, everything melts nicely and a good stirring of the pot numerous times will bring the dirt to the top. Stir from the bottom, and pull the heavy liquid lead up, and the dirt will come with it. I melt mine and keep it melted for maybe 20 minutes at first, during that time I stir and pull the dirt and impurities up and scoop that and the dross off maybe a dozen or more times. I also do that occassionally during the casting process. I end up with unfluxed, clean lead that is perfectly soft. I think that idea of fluxing is one of those bad made up ideas from the early 60's that just won't die in the muzzleloading world ..... But people keep doing it because a friend of their Uncles fifth cousin on their mothers side twice removed shot a muzzle loader once and he fluxed and swore by it, so the rumor continues like an uncontrolled fire and the bad dream lives on and on and on .....
Ohio Rusty
Who will continue to cast and not flux .....

 

[Stumpkiller]

I use a pea sized bit of beeswax several times during casting. I do my pre-melt to form ingots on a Coleman stove in an iron plumber's pot and that flares up. I believe the fluxing has something to do with allowing the crud to break the surface tension. I stir vigorously with a large stainless steel spoon that has a dozen 1/8" holes drilled in it. All kinds of crud works up. But then, the lead I use has tar, okum and various things I don't want to think about (old sewer pipe and roofing flashings).

I clean this up as best as I can and pour ingots.

The electric furnace only melts these pre-cleaned and fluxed ingots. It stays much cleaner, but still dross a plenty comes to the top so I flux and stir it frequently. This one mostly just smokes, but I get an occasional flare-up.

Lead is heavy stuff and it always tickles me to have the occasional pebble or metal object float to the surface. You have to mix it well to allow this foreign crud to float up. The flux has no chance of penetrating down. Beeswax don't sink in lead. It's all about what is happening at that surface boundry layer. The flux allows the dross to clear off nicely. Fresh skimmed lead is pretty stuff.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I am fairly new to bullet casting and I am getting mixxed opinions on flux..should it flame or should it only smoke? Like I said I have heard both..need more info please.
I am using parafin wax,like used in home canning,but I just got my hand on some natural bee's wax..what would be best?
I have been casting bullets with flame after flux and with smoke only after flux and they all look good to me..using pure lead for conicals..any help on this is good...thanx

Meself, I always light it off, keeps the smoke and odors down. Paraffin or various candle waxes (beeswax, I have other uses for ) to flux with, all seems to work fine for me. Skim off the dross with ladle or spoon.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I don't flux at all. If you use something that has paraffin in it to flux with, paraffin is flammable and you'll get flame on top of your lead. Other types of wax smoke heavily. Back to non-fluxing. I don't like the smoke filling up the garage. Think about fluxing for a minute. When you add flux when you solder, the idea is to get the lead solder to stick to what you are soldering. When you flux lead, supposedly it is supposed to bring the impurities to the top. NOT !! It may bring a little, but lead being heavier will pin the dirt to the bottom and sides of your lead pot. When you flux, you are making the dirt stick to the lead like you are making solder stick to a wire. So now you have dirty lead that is holding the dirt in suspension throughout your lead because you fluxed. You don't see any dirt now because it is stuck to the lead and you are convinced your lead is clean !! If you run your lead pot around the 700 to 725 degree mark, everything melts nicely and a good stirring of the pot numerous times will bring the dirt to the top. Stir from the bottom, and pull the heavy liquid lead up, and the dirt will come with it. I melt mine and keep it melted for maybe 20 minutes at first, during that time I stir and pull the dirt and impurities up and scoop that and the dross off maybe a dozen or more times. I also do that occassionally during the casting process. I end up with unfluxed, clean lead that is perfectly soft. I think that idea of fluxing is one of those bad made up ideas from the early 60's that just won't die in the muzzleloading world ..... But people keep doing it because a friend of their Uncles fifth cousin on their mothers side twice removed shot a muzzle loader once and he fluxed and swore by it, so the rumor continues like an uncontrolled fire and the bad dream lives on and on and on .....
Ohio Rusty
Who will continue to cast and not flux .....

Been casting bullets for near on 50 years, including for CF rifle and pistol, practice then, and now, is to flux. Fluxing bullet metals is not some old folk tale, it is for a practical reason. For alloyed metal such as #2, linotype, or WW, one fluxes to help insure the tin and antimony is alloyed correctly with the lead, and to help break the metal surface tension so the crud can break out as the metal is stirred. I have tried to cast without fluxing, the difference was night and day.

The fluxing of pure lead (scrap lead, pure?) is for helping remove impurities from the metal. The wax flux used for casting bullets or balls, has no relation to that of acid or borax flux to solder metals.

If the waxes smoke and odor is a bother, use Marvelux or NEI bullet casting fluxes, they are used by commercial bullet casters.

 

[jaguarxk120]

The dirt in the metal comes to the surface of molten metal. There is no way you can have a mix of dirt, sand, dross or what ever in the molten lead. As long as it's lighter it will float. Just as stated fluxing returns the oxidised metal back to the melt. Use wax's, special flux's (they work great) oil (very smoky) or some have used charcoal, use a fluxing agen't. You will higher quality ball's. TF

 

[arquebus]

Over the past 30 years I've been casting I've used both commercial fluxes (Marvelux & Rapine) & non. Have had most success with either beeswax or just excess bullet lube that used to ooze from my lube/sizer back in my unenlightened cartridge-gun days! I am currently working through a batch of 50/50 beeswax/petroloeum jelly mix that I used to use on my Minies.....I have since switched to SPG for my bullet lubing needs. Anyway, most of the wax-type fluxes tend to flame, if they just smoke I generally keep a box of matches handy & light the gases myself so as to keep the smoke to a minimum as I cast indoors (well ventilated).

 

[wszumera]

Whenever I've used wax fluxes, I've lit it for smoke control. This is when I'm casting for centerfile stuff.

Some use kitty litter on top of the pot to keep air from the lead to minimize oxidizing.

Casting pure lead, I haven't bothered with fluxing.

I've heard sprinking boric acid works good to cover up the top to keep oxidation down. I bought some recently and plan to give it a try during the next casting session.

Clutch

 

[crockett]

Hey Timbo: you only flux when you are casting a lead alloy of some sort- the "hardcast" lead used in modern ammo. No need to flux when casting pure lead for muzzleloading.
The dross gets removed by skimming it off the surface.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

Crocketts and Clutch are correct ...there is no need to flux when using pure lead. And Jaguar ... It's not true that impurities automatically float to the top of the lead pot. I've proved it several times to other casters when they thought their lead was clean, and we ended up with another spoonful of dirt because the weight of the lead pinned the dirt to the bottom of the pot. Lead is pretty thick and heavy when it's a liquid, and it takes some agressive movement of the lead to get the dirt and crud to come to the top. Historically, I've never found any documentation of anyone ever fluxing their pure lead. I have seen references in the 18th century of people mixing a concocction of mercury with lead to get lead to flow better while making drop shot. Apparently it would help the lead flow thru the small holes better, and most likely the mercury vapors also helped reduce the their life expectency!!. The only references I ever saw of fluxing was Toby Bridges and Sam Fadala put it in their writings to sell their books. So if ole Toby and Sam put it in writing, then everyone believed it's gospel !! (and apparently still do).
No need to flux pure lead, just alot of attention to stirring and getting all the dross and dirt off before you pour is all you need, then the smoke and lead vapors from all that unnecessary fluxing will be less harmful to you. Everyone has their own way of doing things that works best for them ...... No flux it's works well for me and my lead is almost so soft you could spread it with a butter knife !!
Ohio Rusty

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ohio Rusty; I have no doubt that if you KNOW that the lead you are melting is pure lead, there is no need to flux. My problem is that I don't trust the suppliers who sell me " pure lead ". So, I stir, and I flux, just to be sure. And, of course, something can always break loose from the surface of my melting pot, and get into the lead. So I flux, and stir again every time I add more lead to the pot.

These steps may not be necessary, but doing them lets me be sure. I am not running a commerical casting operation where I can't afford the time to stir and flux. I do recommend that the place be vented well, and that you wear a breathing mask to protect your lungs from the fumes when working with molten lead, and flux.

 

[bwhoffman]

I use a bottomm pour and mostly pure lead. I stir and skim the top, and repaet when I add more raw stock. Cant say I've had any issues as of yet. Been doing this for 25 years.
Now wheel weights for my centerfire pistols...I mix, stir skim and flux, with bees wax and skim again.

Brett

 

[Ohio Rusty]

I use roof flashing Paul ...that is the best stuff I have ever come across. And Brett ...I never use wheel weights either ....but that is probably a whole 'nother thread. A bud of mine in Minnesota a couple of years ago got a bunch of free wheel weights. when he melted them down, they were full of steel dust and bits that would have ruined a MZ barrel. You don't know what kind of trash is melted into wheel weights these days. I never trust anything but pure lead.
Ohio Rusty

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roof Flashing that has not been used on a roof is the " gold Standard of pure lead ". But if its been on a roof, you can't know what is on or in it. After all, the wind can blow all kinds of stuff into it at enough velocity to imbed whatever it is into the lead. Hopefully, it will be light weight sands, a debris, that WILL float quickly to the top. I think stirring and fluxing this kind of thing is good insurance. Every time I think I have some " clean " lead, I find myself getting a surprise. Its not nice to drop a ball or bullet, and see some foreign something sticking out the side of a new casting.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Never heard of Toby whatitsname, and Sam just quotes from others. But in my references are for alloy and not pure lead. The fluxing is to return the tin back into the mix and get rid of dirt in the metal( you are right). The only reference of fluxing lead is in the Lyman BP handbook 1975.
By the way I read Sharpe, Naramore, and Nonte, with Hatcher thrown in. TF

 

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks to all for the input..I will be casting again soon and eager to try the ideas all yall have given me. thanx agin.........