Help please.............

[Little Wattsy]

I know tat the forum has been all around this but its NOT sticking in my brain.

I have a T/C Renegade w/ a .50 cal (1 in 28 twist) GM barrel that shoots conicals pretty darn good. fav so far is the 460 gr Hornady over 100 grains of Pyro RS w a oxyoke wad. Im sure this will kill what ever it hits, and Im liking the accuracy to 100 yards.

So i got a .54 cal barrel from T/C (1 in 48 twist) cuz ya'll got me excited about killin w/a PRB. Its still a newish barrel w/ say 80 rounds through it. I am having a hard time grouping over 70 grains of powder even with a overpowder wad. Is THAT enough of a combination to ethically shoot deer at 100 yards....75 grains of Pyro RS and a .54 PRB?

All opinions are welcome. Please and Thank YOU!

 

[Zoar]

According to some stats I have a 54 caliber round ball (.530 actually) weighing it at about 220 grains offers up some good "numbers" using 70 grains FFg = 1469 FPS and 1102 ft.lbs

Should be plenty. Deer are not tough to kill. As you know it is all about placement. I hate to admit to knowing this, but I do know some guys who regularly take deer with 22 rim fire. 1 shot. Down. Placement.

But my suggestion is---have you tried any black powder?

 

[longcruise]

There's much unsaid in your question, such as how do the patches look when you go to 80 or 90 grains? Is that a vloume measure or weight measure of your powder?

Guys in my camp have no problem killing deer and elk with 80 gr ff goex and a .54 prb.

 

[shootemup]

There's much unsaid in your question...Guys in my camp have no problem killing deer and elk with 80 gr ff goex and a .54 prb.

Couldn't agree more. 80 grains 2f under a .018 patched .530 roundball is pretty much a standard load for me in my .54's.

I should mention that I've never taken a shot on a deer at 100 yards with a black powder gun, and I don't use substitutes.

Tell us more about what you're doing, what your patches look like, what sort of wads you're using, etc. What, exactly, is your load?

You should certainly be able to get acceptable hunting accuracy from a T/C 1:48 barrel...

Spot

 

[RC]

zoar sayed..

-have you tried any black powder?

............. :rotf: :hmm: seriously tho....ditto??? gotta be black powder around,,, least nuff fer huntin!

 

[paulvallandigham]

As others have already asked, have you checked the used patches after firing?

Pyrodex, as other substitute powder, has a higher flash point( point at which it burns) than does Black Powder. If you are seeing groups deteriorate with powder charges more than 70 grains, I have to suspect that you are burning or tearing your patches with those heavier charges of that powder.

GO BACK TO USING BLACK POWDER, ONLY , IN THIS AND OTHER BLACK POWDER RIFLES. Truly, you will be much happier, when you do.

The only other remedy open to you is to use an OP wad, or a filler between the powder and the PRB to protect the patch from burning.

There is absolutely no reason for you not to get good RB groups out of that rifle with that rate of twist., even with heavy charges of powder.

 

[BrownBear]

I know tat the forum has been all around this but its NOT sticking in my brain.

I have a T/C Renegade w/ a .50 cal (1 in 28 twist) GM barrel that shoots conicals pretty darn good. fav so far is the 460 gr Hornady over 100 grains of Pyro RS w a oxyoke wad. Im sure this will kill what ever it hits, and Im liking the accuracy to 100 yards.

So i got a .54 cal barrel from T/C (1 in 48 twist) cuz ya'll got me excited about killin w/a PRB. Its still a newish barrel w/ say 80 rounds through it. I am having a hard time grouping over 70 grains of powder even with a overpowder wad. Is THAT enough of a combination to ethically shoot deer at 100 yards....75 grains of Pyro RS and a .54 PRB?

All opinions are welcome. Please and Thank YOU!

Don't know about 100 yards, but I'm yet to recover a 54 cal RB from deer shot broadside at 50 or less over 70 grains of Pyro P. I find that the Pyro P is a whole lot more accurate in my two 54s than RS. Like the others, I suspect your accuracy problems are coming from the patch/ball/lube combo rather than the powder.

Black powder is dandy, but I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep if you're using Pyro. Especially with P, I bet it will make your rifle sing once you get the ball/patch/lube combo sorted. Nothing to go on from your description, but since accuracy gets worse as you go up, I'm betting you're blowing your patches once you pass 70 grains, whether they're too thin or your lube isn't doing its job.

 

[longcruise]

I should mention that I've never taken a shot on a deer at 100 yards with a black powder gun,

I don't either, but that's just my choice. I feel a lot more comfortable at 75 or less. Most of my shots come at 40 to 60 yards anyway!

As far as the ability to kill, I personally saw a guy in my camp shoot a 200 pound mule deer at a measured 180 yards with a .530 ball over 80 grains of ff goex in a lyman gpr. Double lung with ball stopped just under the hide.

Two days later I personally saw another guy in my camp shoot a twin to that deer at about 25 yards with a TC .54 and the exact same load. Double lung and stopped just under the skin on the far side. :shocked2: Goi figgeer!

 

Watts, who let you out of the kitchen? :grin:

 

[tg]

If that load snd your aim can hit the right spot at 100 yds, the deer will be in your freezer. that is what I used to use in my LGP longest shot was about 80 but I had no concerns about it doing the job at 100yds I just didn't usually shoot over 75 with a rifle, I look at this as a close range deal and don't often need to shoot past 40-50 yds.

 

[shootemup]

I should mention that I've never taken a shot on a deer at 100 yards with a black powder gun,

I don't either, but that's just my choice. I feel a lot more comfortable at 75 or less. Most of my shots come at 40 to 60 yards anyway!

As far as the ability to kill, I personally saw a guy in my camp shoot a 200 pound mule deer at a measured 180 yards with a .530 ball over 80 grains of ff goex in a lyman gpr. Double lung with ball stopped just under the hide.

Two days later I personally saw another guy in my camp shoot a twin to that deer at about 25 yards with a TC .54 and the exact same load. Double lung and stopped just under the skin on the far side. :shocked2: Goi figgeer!

Yeah I agree,

I didn't mean to suggest the .54 wouldn't take a deer at 100 yards as long as the shooter did his part. Just that I don't shoot that far.

The way I hunt I won't see the deer that far away anyhow. :grin:

 

[BrownBear]

I've never seen anyone with enough data to write a sensible formula about the whole penetration versus velocity question surrounding pure lead round balls. Trying to rope the question into the traditional debate between momentum versus energy isn't a clear win for either side. Certainly the usual formulas don't work.

I've only shot a few compared to the numbers I've shot with cartridge handguns and rifles, the usual playground of Momentumites and Energarians, but something else is going on that isn't explained well or exclusively by either side.

RBs expand more radically relative to their sectional density than anything else, but in expanding they don't shed weight to the degree that conventional jacketed rifle bullets do. Faster doesn't necessarily mean more penetration. And balls moving slower tend to expand less, allowing them to penetrate more.

It would take lots of shooting into a uniform media like ballistic gelatin to confirm, but it looks as though it's possible for a slower ball to penetrate more than a fast one just because it doesn't distort or expand as much. Certainly the wound channel of the fast one is going to be more extensive along its path, but because of greatly reduced ballistic coefficient along with increased surface area, it is likely not to penetrate as deeply as a slower moving ball that distorts less and keeps a higher BC.

Factor in larger calibers versus small, and the effects of even a little bit of alloy in a ball to change its expansion characterisitcs, and you have a fine kettle of stew that is likely to defy a meaningful formulaic description as a predictor of penetration behavior.

All I've been able to figure out is that more velocity usually means flatter trajectory. That's easy to measure and if it makes it easy for you to hit at longer range, adjust your measure for larger charges.

If you're shooting at closer ranges you just don't need the giant charges. Here's food for thought in the example of the 180 yard mule deer:

How fast was that ball moving on impact?

Seems to me the mere fact that it penetrad well enough to kill not only validates its penetration potential at longer range. It simultaneously validates the penetration potential of the same round ball at the same velocity if it was launched with a small powder charge at closer range.

Do the math or read the tables to learn how fast a .530 RB is moving at 180 yards when launched by 80 grains of 2f. If you can match that velocity at 50 yards by using only 40 grains of 3f, then I'd say there's no difference in killing power between the two loads at their respective ranges.

 

[Britsmoothy]

PBRs need to be run in. The patches need to smooth the bore and 80 odd shots may not be enough. I had the same problem. Nowa days I would Lap my bore with something like jb compound.
It may just need running in some. Try another lube if you can.I reason you are good to go now but I think the best is yet to come from that barrel. :thumbsup:
Britsmoothy.

 

[tg]

Yeah....what BrownBear said....what did he say? :shocked2:

 

[Little Wattsy]

There's much unsaid in your question, such as how do the patches look when you go to 80 or 90 grains? Is that a vloume measure or weight measure of your powder?

Guys in my camp have no problem killing deer and elk with 80 gr ff goex and a .54 prb.

The patches are pretty rough...Some "cuts", Lots of fray's. Not really burnt though..I think I mentioned that I am up to a .20 patch and useing a overpowder wad in trying to solve the issue as a whole.

 

[BrownBear]

There's much unsaid in your question, such as how do the patches look when you go to 80 or 90 grains? Is that a vloume measure or weight measure of your powder?

Guys in my camp have no problem killing deer and elk with 80 gr ff goex and a .54 prb.

The patches are pretty rough...Some "cuts", Lots of fray's. Not really burnt though..I think I mentioned that I am up to a .20 patch and useing a overpowder wad in trying to solve the issue as a whole.

Yup.

Sounds like a perfect case of patch failure. Could be poor lube, but it also could be a bad match between ball size and patch thickness. I'd try messing with your lube, probably putting more on the patches, before going out and buying anything else.

If that doesn't do the job, if you're currently using .530 balls I think you'll have an easier time finding .535 balls than suitable patching thicker than .020. Hornady swages both .530's and .535's, so you could buy a box of the bigger ones. My GPR 54 is really happy with .530's and .018 ticking with a variety of lubes, but a pard's 54 from TC prefers .535 with .018 ticking.

Worth a try, and if you have trouble finding any .535's to try, put out a shout. Lots of folks around here probably have them and can send you a handful to sample.

 

[doulos]

quote] I am having a hard time grouping over 70 grains of powder even with a overpowder wad. Is THAT enough of a combination to ethically shoot deer at 100 yards....75 grains of Pyro RS and a .54 PRB?

All opinions are welcome. Please and Thank YOU![/quote]

I have to agree with marmotslayer ,how do your patches look?
Could it be your flinching when loading over 70? ( i doubt it if you were shootiing large conicals well)
Keep shooting the gun and try some different powder, preferably black
I prefer to shoot as large a charge as I can shoot accurately for hunting. Im not claiming to be an expert and Im sure some here may disagree. But I think 70 grains is a little light in a .54 for 100 yards with a PRB.

 

[doulos]

Wattsy, Didnt see your last post about cuts on the patches. That has to be solved first.

 

The patches are pretty rough...Some "cuts", Lots of fray's. Not really burnt though..I think I mentioned that I am up to a .20 patch and useing a overpowder wad in trying to solve the issue as a whole.[/quote]


Use Black Powder :yakyak: Frays are fine. Cuts aint. Use a good lube. keep practising :blah:

 

[longcruise]

Do the math or read the tables to learn how fast a .530 RB is moving at 180 yards when launched by 80 grains of 2f. If you can match that velocity at 50 yards by using only 40 grains of 3f, then I'd say there's no difference in killing power between the two loads at their respective ranges.

Here's some math on it. This assumes a 1700 fps muzzle velocity. I and that shooter shoot together a lot but we've never chrono'd his load.

at 180 yards its at 912 fps with 425 fpe.