Help - possible barrel bulge

[pjmcdonald]

I've been lurking the forums, learning a lot over the past few years. Ordered Dutch's system and slowly improving. But I have a concern and I'm wondering whether or not to re-barrel.

The rifle is an old TC "Hawken", .50 cal, serial 59xx. It was a gift from my father in law. Sat up for about 20 years. Still pulling light rust from barrel. I can feel a very, very slight bulge about 22" down the bore. Only with a slick patch.

I've had it to the range several times. My PRB groups are still about 4" - 5" at 50 yards.

I love the gun. Plus it has sentimental value. Pa-in-law and I were close. He taught me to hunt. My goal is take a whitetail with it this fall season.

Any advice on whether to re-barrel? I know I need to keep practicing. That is the fun part!

Paul

 

[longcruise]

To be certain that you have a bulge, you can carefully measure the exterior of the barrel with a mic or calipers. With the rust issues going on, it may just be a slight variation in barrel condition at that point.

You could rebarrel just for the possible improvement. Four to five inch at 50 does not meet expectations for a TC if you are shooting from the bench.

 

[Critter Getter]

Welcome to this forum! What load are you shooting to get the 4-5" group? Off hand or off a bench? How much experimenting have you done with it? Lots of questions to be answered here. Greg.

 

[nhmoose]

A bulge will be a loose spot. When tight rust or pit. Keep shooting it and don't worry about it.

 

[Tom Compton]

May just be a place w no rust. Use a .36 or .40 cleaning jag w green scotch brite cut about 1" square. Several passes then turn it over and several more. Wipe w correct jag and wet patch. Repeat.

 

[Leatherbark]

I bought a T.C. Hawken from someone here once. It had a loose spot down in the barrel. It was a low number T.C also. The dovetail under the barrel for the wedge was really cut deep and the bore was really thin in that area. Someone prior to me must have shot a short started load and voila' a bulge.

If it is a loose spot measure to see if it is in the area of the wedge dovetail.

I scrapped my barrel.

Bob

 

[pjmcdonald]

Welcome to this forum! What load are you shooting to get the 4-5" group? Off hand or off a bench? How much experimenting have you done with it? Lots of questions to be answered here. Greg.

Greg,

.490 round ball over 80 grains of 2F BP substitute. No one carries real BP around here. Plan to order some soon. Don't know patch thickness. Precut round patches from local sporting goods - sorry Dutch! Mom volunteered to hit the fabric store for me for 100% cotton pillow tick. Will try several thicknesses.

Shooting off bench using sandbags. Rear peep sight installed at some point. I'm not the greatest marksman but 24 years in the Army Guard, I've been to the range and have the fundamentals - breathing, sight picture, steady hold, trigger squeeze.

I started to get into BP shooting w this rifle about 2 years ago. Life happened and I set it aside. I now find myself with some time and access to a good public range.

I've tried between 70 and 90 grains. Not seeing a lot of difference in PRB groups. Even tried sabots (I know - bad and not discussed here - just offering point of reference). The s****s gave about 1-1/2 to 2" groups. But I really want to shoot PRB, and shoot them well.

As for lubrication and cleaning, moose milk. Very lightly moistened patches. I'm thinking inconsistencies with both patch thickness and moisture may be a big part of my problem. Swab after 3rd round. Damp patch followed by dry.

But I'm concerned about the condition of the barrel rifling, aside from possible bulge. Looking down with a flashlight (bore light on shopping list now), the grooves appear pretty rough.

Also understand TC has 1:48 twist. Not ideal for ball.

Shooting a muzzle stuffer is more addictive than crack. I spent half my holiday weekend surfing TOW and related websites.

Paul

 

[pjmcdonald]

If it is a loose spot measure to see if it is in the area of the wedge dovetail.

Bob

Bob,

Bingo. That is the spot. Hard to describe. I can't feel it pushing a dry patch. But if I push a very slick, wet patch (as when cleaning after range day) I can just feel a decrease in resistance then resistance returns to same level. Kind of like trying to feel a fish just bump the bait. I know there is a spot there. Just don't know if it is a real problem or not.

Paul

 

[nkbj]

With a relatively inexpensive rebore it could make a jim dandy .52, with the rifling pattern, groove depth and the rate of twist of your choice.
:2

 

[Critter Getter]

I can't tell you if you have a bulge in your barrel or not but next time you go out if you want to experiment with 60 grains of powder and try say a .15 spit patch that has worked well for me with .490 and .495 RB out of most of my TC's. I know each rifle has its own recipe it likes but that has worked very well for me out of several 50 calipers . Greg.

 

[Grenadier1758]

If it is a loose spot measure to see if it is in the area of the wedge dovetail.

Bob

Bob,

Bingo. That is the spot. Hard to describe. I can't feel it pushing a dry patch. But if I push a very slick, wet patch (as when cleaning after range day) I can just feel a decrease in resistance then resistance returns to same level. Kind of like trying to feel a fish just bump the bait. I know there is a spot there. Just don't know if it is a real problem or not.

Paul

Since the area where you feel the looseness is at the tenon, any rebore will reduce the amount of barrel material in that area. If you can't get any better groups than 4 to 5 inches unless you go to non-traditional measures, its time to consider a barrel replacement.

 

[jamesthomas]

I agree a re-bore will thin that spot even more making it unsafe. I would order another barrel if I was you.

 

[Okie Hog]

But I'm concerned about the condition of the barrel rifling, aside from possible bulge. Looking down with a flashlight (bore light on shopping list now), the grooves appear pretty rough.

You also said the bore has rust. Given the fact that your bore is in bad shape it's nearly impossible to tell if there is a bulge or not.

Give your barrel a good scrubbing with jeweler's rouge or J-B Bore Paste and go from there.
http://www.brownells.com/items/jb-bore-paste.aspx

 

[Rifleman1776]

carefully measure the exterior of the barrel with a mic or calipers

IMHO, doing that is a MUST. If there is a bulge your barrel is now a garden stake. Then order a replacement barrel. Safety is paramount, don't take chances.

 

[Larry Beach]

Personally I have found 70 grain and round ball is quite a bit more accurate with that fast twist. Seems the heavier loads out pushes the twist. With R.E.A.L Maxi's it handles a bit heavier load, even
tho they are a Bear to load, they are accurate.
The rust may shoot out after a couple hundred shots to clean out those grooves.
Good luck.

 

[Billnpatti]

"(bore light on shopping list now), "

If you have an O'Riley's auto parts store in your area, they have a great little flashlight that makes an excellent bore light. It is a very thin stainless steel flashlight that will fit down the bore of any rifle down to a .40 caliber. I bought mine several months ago and forget what I paid for it but it was not expensive. If you don't have an O'Riley's, check out the various auto parts stores in your area. One of them will likely carry it.

 

[crockett]

I'm going to toss out some thoughts. Hopefully others can comment. On a modern slug gun with a rifled bore-the accuracy is good however folks have found that a smoothbore with a screw in rifled choke often is as accurate. Using that situation the question here ought to be whether a bulge in the barrel effects accuracy? Well, it sure isn't going to help but all might not be lost. It probably depends on the location of the bulge but it would seem that once the ball was past the area all ought to be okay.
If you are shooting off a bench and getting 4-5" groups at 50 yards. To be honest, that's really poor accuracy. The groups ought to be around an inch. You'll be able to get that if you fiddle around a bit with the load. The patch can make a big difference, it is a very important part of the mix. Buy quality, pre-lubed patches. In fact even the lube can effect accuracy. Powder charge regulates velocity and if the barrel is 1 in 48 twist then a moderate powder charge to slightly slow velocity MAY be more accurate. For hunting- remember you are shooting a pure lead ball that is very soft- it will be fine on medium deer type game.
There is a longer time delay on black powder arms. Even off a bench follow through is critical. Then you might try a larger ball. The typical deal is drop .010, so on a 50 caliber use a .490 ball but you can try a .495 and thinner patch and see if that makes a difference.
The biggest issue on the bulge is probably gas cutting and if it is irregular from shot to shot- that would not be good. Some folks use a wad with a rifle. That is: powder charge, lubed WAD, then a patched round ball. That wad may help reduce gas cutting and make a difference.
Attitude is critical. If you are "down" on the rifle it won't ever be accurate but if you are willing to try to experiment you may get a very good load that works.

 

[Billnpatti]

"Some folks use a wad with a rifle."

:metoo: I'll second that. Quite often a wad will improve your accuracy by improving the consistancy of your MV. Give it a try. I use wads that I punch out myself. I use hard Duro Felt and a hollow punch that I bought from one of our members, Ohio Ramrod. He will make you a punch exactly the diameter that you need for an extremely reasonable price. I spread the lube of choice (my personal preference is Bore Butter) on my felt sheet, place it in the microwave for a few seconds to melt the lube into the felt and then I punch out my wads.
http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html

 

[Grumpa]

Lots of good advice above. Too soon to know if your barrel is ruined...or just needs some load development or some work you can do yourself.

When manufacturers roll or stamp their name and address on a barrel, they diminish the internal dimension of the bore at that point. The same can hold true for dovetails. If the damage is hurting accuracy, then the barrel needs to be lapped to make its bore uniform. You can do that yourself.

What you need to do now is clean it up, and shoot it a lot, trying different load combinations.

I have a flintlock rifle with a "loose" spot in the bore mid-way down the barrel. It will put 5 shots PRB in an inch-and-a-half at 50 yards, from the bench. That's without any experimenting (yet) with loads.

There is also the question of the sentimental value of the gun? 4-5" at 50 yards is a shotgun with slugs. No one shot is more than 2 1/2" from your point of aim..."minute of deer". But I expect that your groups will improve with some experimentation.

Good shooting, and good luck.
Grumpa

 

[Big Hammer]

IF the barrel has a bulge, the barrel strength is compromised at that point. You can't tell if it is bulged, so you will continue to worry about it. If it IS bulged, re cutting it is not an option because of the strength issue.

It does not shoot at all well. Either you are a lousy shot, or the barrel is garbage. I doubt that you are that bad of a shot, so I would blame the barrel. Just replace it, and be done with worrying about these various issues that have been discussed. A couple hundred bucks for peace of mind and a potentially accurate rifle is a small price to pay. Then you can actually find out how well you can shoot.