Help with identification and brand of a 17th century firearm

[FirearmCollector]

Hello all, new to this forum but I am pulling my hair out trying to identify a rifle I purchased, it is from the year 1600.. the lock is gone so I do not know if it a wheellock or a matchlock. I have been looking for what name this could be or where it came from… hopefully both.

Yes I am aware it needs a lot of work as it is missing the lock and I the stock is cracked, honestly I do not care as this is the oldest firearm I have collected to date.

Here are some pictures of this rifle

Thank you all in advance, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[FirearmCollector]

More pictures

 

[TobJohn]

It looks like one of those Swiss percussion target rifles

Sammlung Online des Schweizerischen Nationalmuseums - Sammlung Online Nationalmuseum

 

[FirearmCollector]

That is almost like it, ,mine has the reverse strike where this one has the normal strike, mine also has the cheek swell. I thought it could be German as well. Just can’t fine this one though. Also, I done speak/read German, might you know what they called it?

 

[SOLANCO]

It looks like one of those Swiss percussion target rifles

Sammlung Online des Schweizerischen Nationalmuseums - Sammlung Online Nationalmuseum

If it is, then it is a good bit newer than 1600.

 

[FirearmCollector]

It looks like one of those Swiss percussion target rifles

Sammlung Online des Schweizerischen Nationalmuseums - Sammlung Online Nationalmuseum

Also, mine is from the year 1600 while the one you sent the link for was made in the 1800 hundreds. That is my dilemma, lol

 

[Brazos John]

I love the trigger guard!

 

[TobJohn]

If it is, then it is a good bit newer than 1600.

I don’t know much about percussion guns but it looks like it has the nipple and drum on the barrel.

It looks inspired by old wheellock rifle, but while not a perfect match in the stock layout, the museum I linked has 3 or so 1800s target guns with a fairly similar appearance.

 

[FirearmCollector]

If it is, then it is a good bit newer than 1600.

I said the same think, but if you look at it closer, mine does not really look like it as mine has the reverse strike compared to a standard strike, mine is about 3 pounds heavier then anything made in the 1800’s (I have quite a few 1800’s rifles, including heavy barrel ones, and mine has the carved cheek swell. As well as the rear stock is at a steeper angle and it is also hallmarked that it was made in 1600 both on top and underneath the barrel with a makers mark.

 

[FirearmCollector]

I would also love to know any makes that used ivory on the front, right underneath the barrel. In all of my years collecting, I have never seen this either

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I'm not seeing anything 17th century there.

 

[lexington1]

It's a 19th c target rifle that maybe re-used an early barrel. Not too uncommon. Here is mid 18thc Jaeger rifle that used a 1672 dated barrel.

 

[Rudyard]

I don’t know much about percussion guns but it looks like it has the nipple and drum on the barrel.

It looks inspired by old wheellock rifle, but while not a perfect match in the stock layout, the museum I linked has 3 or so 1800s target guns with a fairly similar appearance.

I think ' youve pinned it down the barrel might be a re use but nothing 17c about it, more 1820s .sorry to burst the posters bubble. The date stamps are odd .Its had a rough trip but still an interesting piece in its way. I have something similar & have to do work on another same style as mine , its stamped in a poincion looks like Toffel? but a positive Herzberg and the stamp looks like that of a Brandenburg maker all three very alike re the arrangement of the stocking . one ex flint with side plug conversion the other appears late flint in style but made percussion . I couldn't find Herzberg but it may be a place that later had a name change as borders shifted . Regards Rudyard

 

[FirearmCollector]

I don’t know much about percussion guns but it looks like it has the nipple and drum on the barrel.

It looks inspired by old wheellock rifle, but while not a perfect match in the stock layout, the museum I linked has 3 or so 1800s target guns with a fairly similar appearance.

Have you looked at any firearms form the 17th century? Most of them have nipples. Never mind about answering any more.. I will just take it to a museum for identification as some of you apparently have never seen one… nipple and all.

 

[Rudyard]

Have you looked at any firearms form the 17th century? Most of them have nipples. Never mind about answering any more.. I will just take it to a museum for identification as some of you apparently have never seen one… nipple and all.

Dear Poster What you know about 17 c guns you will soon forget, But by all means ask any arms museum .If few curators are familiar with all museum items its often the case they need to seek more learned authorities. Percussion of any sort dosn't appear much if any prior to 1800, Incidentally I was just such a consultant . Suffice to say NO 17th or 18 th c guns had nipples originally I think your confusing 18c meaning actually 1700s.Your gun is early 19th c We are now in the 21 st The US Civil War was fought mid 1860s but its a 19th c war WW2 is the 20th .Be rude but we sought to help you . Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rudyard is right on the money.

Best,
Pukka.

 

[Barud]

The odd position of the nipple made me think that it's a reverse hammer gun. They weren't all that common to my understanding, but seem to have had their own niche in Europe during the 19th century, possibly as a familiar follow-up for the wheellock hunting rifle.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Yes, agreed ... the barrel might be old, but the gun itself is 19th century. Here are some other thoughts:

-Beware that someone may have marked it '1600' to increase it's provenance and value, they did NOT do that back then ...
-Looking at that lockplate inlet it is not from a wheellock
-That buttstock is called a 'Tyrolean' and usually, especially with German Schuetzen guns, were more ornate and embellished. However this could be an early one ...
-The drop of the stock and curled trigger guard certainly supports the opine it was a purpose built offhand target rifle