Help with identification

[bob_hoyer]

My neighbor recently acquired a Flintlock Pistol which was handed down from several generations before his grandmother. Neither of us are at all knowledgeable. He asked me for help on getting identification help through the internet.

I took three pictures. They are not the best, but I can do better if that will help. Thought I'd post one here and ask how to procede.

There is lots of fancy scroll work in the metal but I could not find a single identification marking of any kind. Any help or advice is welcome. Here is one picture if I can figure out how to add it:

 

[Old40Rod]

Any estimate on caliber?

 

[Zonie]

To clean up your picture so the members tired old eyes can see it better I ran it thru my Photoshop Elements.
This may help:

 

[CrackStock]

Bob,

Markings would help limit the search. Pics of other views would also be helpful. There are components that put it close to a few gun style and times, but also some items that puzzle. The nose cap especially.

http://www.oldguns.co.uk/4.html[url] http://www.flintlockcollection.net/img_gallery.php?ID=22&page=1[/url]

CS

 

[bob_hoyer]

I should have provided more details. Will have to borrow it back again and take some measurements and better photos.

The bore is approximately 5/8" with an amazingly thin barrel wall and a smooth bore.

My neighbor was taking great pains not to even touch it with his hands so I tried to be very careful with it also. Next time I will be sure to get a few measurements.

Thirty years ago my neighbor's dad was an art student and made a tremendously detailed black and white drawing of this gun. Would posting a reproduction of that drawing be helpful? The marking are shown on the drawing in fabulous detail.

 

[bob_hoyer]

Thanks for the internet links. And thanks also to 'Zonie' for the picture cleanup. That's something I should have done.

I think you know I am not at all knowledgeable in antique guns, so I don't really know what the term 'nose cap' implies. I do believe there may be something missing underneath the barrel toward the front. Will try to get some detailed photos of that area.

Thanks to everyone for the help thus far.

 

[WRussell]

Looks like an early 1700's horse pistol that has had the barrel cut off. "Horse pistol" means it was carried in a holster that hung on the horse. Barrels were cut off when black powder improved.

 

[CrackStock]

My near vision is not very good, so I may be wrong in interpretting what I am seeing. Near the muzzle there is a piece of brass which appears to be attaching the barrel to the wood. Is this an engraved piece or is this tightly wrapped wire?

CS

 

[CrackStock]

You could simply write the barrel marking out in a reply. A lot of the proof markings are listed in Dixie Gun Works or other resources. This shortens the looking a bit whether it is in books or on-line.

CS

 

[bob_hoyer]

It is tightly wrapped wire. And there are no markings (letters or numbers) that I have seen.

I just got the gun back from the neighbor and am going to attempt to post some more pictures below. Not sure if this will work or not, but those who would like to see more pictures or more detail should be able to view at: Link

 

[Zonie]

A little brighter and closer picture of the lock.

 

[bob_hoyer]

Hi. I am back again with a few more questions. First an update: I’ve looked at literally hundreds of photos on the internet and have not found one other flintlock pistol that seems to have the wire wrap up near the front of the barrel. I am starting to think it was maybe a ”˜fix’ for a problem with the bedding of the barrel. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but the gun shares a lot of appearance characteristics of the replica “George Washington Flintlock Pistols”. And that would probably mean this gun was made in England. The lack of any kind of maker’s marks might mean that it is one of a kind ”“ a ”˜home made’ gun, if you will. Opinions on these statements???

The only things that Jim, my neighbor, is interested in some idea of the era and place of origin, plus some idea of the value for insurance purposes. Would an appraisal be the right way to proceed? If so, any advice on how to proceed?

Perhaps the following should be the start of a different post. But since it is about the same gun ”“
We also wonder about the interest and value of really good gun art. Jim’s dad was an art major and made a fantastic “Scratchboard” drawing of this gun before Jim was born. That would have been 35 or more years ago. The detail is unbelievable. And my daughter (also an art major) tells me that “Scratchboard Etchings” are very difficult. One goof and it is start over time. To give you an idea of the beauty of this thing I am posting a scan of a small part of the etching.

 

[Mulebrain]

Thanks for sharing, I just love oldies :thumbsup:
The wire wrap is an old repair, and was quite common when needed. Kinda like bailing wire to hold up a muffler :haha: Not pretty but it worked!

 

[olgriz]

It's from the 1700's, and like was already said, they are called horse pistols, and the wire is a repair. But there are also English sea service pistols that look just like it. I don't think it's English because of the lack of markings. There would be proof marks on the barrel near the breech, and a crown and date on the lock I'm thinking. I think any other European ie: French, Belgium, etc. would also have proof marks. So that might mean that the pistol was made here, and is a copy of an English pistol, like American made contract muskets look just like a brown bess or charlieville, depending on what they were copying.

 

[Zonie]

First, let me say that what I know of these old pistols is based only on some reading and pictures. I may be entirely wrong.

As to the age or era, I will say the long spur or strip going from the grip cap up the side of the grip went out of style in the very early 1800s.
The 1805 Harpers ferry pistol had one almost as long as the gun in the photo but the later military guns (such as the 1807 Henry Deringer Contract Flintlock pistol) often did away with this feature or had very short spurs.

Based on the photos in SMALL ARMS by Frederick Wilkinson copyright 1965 which deals primarily with European guns, this long spur was popular at least as early as 1660 lasting thru the 1700s.

The flair of the grips butt area is a carryover of pistols of the wheel lock era (1500s) and was popular thru the late 1700s. By the late 1700s this grip shapes flair had deminished to mild flairs or no flair at all. These later guns usually had more of a spherical butt shape.

Some believe the purpose of the flaired area was to permit the user to get a better grip on the gun as they were trying to pull it from the holster.
The holsters were mounted on the horses saddle pommel, hence the term "horse pistol". Holsters were not worn by people as near as I can determine.

It is too bad that there are no significient markings on the exposed metal surfaces to indicate the maker. That is not to say there are no markings at all as proof marks and other forms of identifiction were often marked on the bottom of the barrel or inside the lockplate.
Obviously, access to the bottom of the barrel is out of the question as it would require removing of the wire at the muzzle which would destroy it. Removing of the lock should only be done by a gunsmith who has experiance in handleing antique arms so that is probably out of the question too.

It is impossible for me to make a guess as to the value because I don't track these things but for more speculation on my part I will say:

If it were proven to be American made in the mid to late 1700s it's value (in this country) would be much higher than a European gun.
If it prooved to be a U.S. Secondary Military American gun made in the 1770-1815 time frame it would be worth $9000+ (based on a 1995 Flayderman's Guide.)
I rather doubt that it is a US Secomdary Military gun because of the engraving on the lock and the butt. This (to me) indicates it was made for private use.
If the gun was in the American Colonies during the Revolutionary War, private use does not mean the gun wasn't used in Military action. During this time, the Continental Army was using everything they could find.

If it is a European gun made in the 1700-1810 era and can not be tied to use by the Continental Army, it could be worth as little as $600 to $1500 (a guess on my part based on its current condition).

 

[olgriz]

Zonie, I think you are a little high on the price. Flayderman's is way high on their prices, and the condition of this pistol makes me think that $1500 is way out of line. I'm thinking even $600 would be high, because I have an antique one just like this one, engraved and carved stock, and it's in shootable condition. I haven't shot it, but the guy I got it from had. Mine has been converted to caplock long long ago, and that's knocked the socks off the value, and I payed well under $600 for it, and over all it's in way better shape than this one. I'd like to see a picture looking straight down at the breech area, and a close up of the left side breech area. from the drawing, which really doesn't show that much, it looks like the breech area has some fancy work, and if so any proof marks would have to be someplace else. I agree, it sure looks to me like a gentlemans pistol with the carving and engraving, which then makes me think officer. Officers were mounted, didn't carry muskets, they had a sword and pistols, and officers stuff was a little higher class than what the ranks had. Plus, enlisted men didn't get pistols unless they were mounted dragoons, and then they had two, plus saber and sometimes shortened muskets, including a saddle ring carbine used by British horse at the time of our revolution. The British sea service pistol I had at one time was very plain.

 

[Zonie]

cowhand: As I mentioned, I don't follow Antique prices but I do agree with you. Guns converted from Flintlock to Precussion take a big hit on value. For example, the same Flayderman's book gives these values for the same companys guns:
Flintlock-----Precussion
$9000..........$4000
$3500..........$2000
$6000..........$2750
$20000.........$9000

I was basing my guess on value on it being a original Flintlock.

 

[olgriz]

Zonie, Yeah, I see where you are coming from. It's just that the gun is in such bad shape. The condition the gun is in is what really makes the value -- unless it can be somehow proven that it is an American made pistol because that would inflate the price. The fact that it's a flinter also adds to the value, but with a gun of that quality it doesn't add that much. My humble experience with ML's only dates back to the early 70's. I have always been able to buy shootable antiques for less money, usually way less money than modern made replicas. I've never been able to understand why, but I also haven't let it bother me, because I like originals over repo's any day. And yes, on occasion I've shot all of them, except a couple of pistols, some more than others, especially when I didn't have a repo to shoot at the time. I had an original Brown Bess a couple of years ago, paid $350 for it, and I was going to repair it and make it a shooter, ended up having it sit around so sold it for $450. It could still be made into a shooter if the guy that bought it wanted to -- so what's a repo Brown Bess bringing today, $850.00 ??? All that said, don't get me wrong, I aint a expert on this stuff, I just keep my eyes and ears open, and most of the antiques I have purchased have been way below the bottom NRA grade, which is the case with this pistol. The price is all in the quality. Please understand I aint trying to argue with you, I've just shared about everything I know on the subject. One more thing, you go to the gun show, and you see these high priced antiques on the tables, and you think Wow, they are worth lots of money, but after you've gone to these shows for several years you notice that the same guns are on the same tables, for the same price waiting for a sucker. There is a guy on the internet (I won't say his name) that has antique cap and ball Colt pistols for sale at horrible prices, $15 to $20 thousand. I don't know if he sells any, but I have an 1861 colt that's almost a hundred percent, it was owned by a Colonel in the Union Army, he must of had a desk job, because there isn't hardly any holster wear. I'm the third owner of the gun, the Colonel's widow sold it to my still alive now 99 year old Uncle, who not long ago gave it to me. OK says I, if I can sell this gun for 15 or 20 grand it's gone. The best offer I got was under -- way under 5. I still have the gun, my kid can sell it when I die. Shucks, what am I trying to say -- the gun is only worth what someone will pay for it. In real life it's not as much as you might think.

 

[Zonie]

"...the gun is only worth what someone will pay for it."
_______________________
Ain't that the truth!!

 

[mrbill]

"...the gun is only worth what someone will pay for it."
_______________________
Ain't that the truth!!

i was told pretty much the same by a man i greatly respect(not a relative). the only difference was that in place of "the gun", he said "something". kinda coincidental that he happens to build bp guns from scratch(and i do mean scratch). :grin: