Hi all! To start off on a complex note...

[Dalko110]

...I have a bit of a legal question that both me and my friend in IN are wondering about. I'm in southern NY, btw. Well, I'm a member of several vintage military rifle forums and have not been able to find out the answer on those boards. My friend is wanting to get into Civil War reenacting, and saw a shotgun with provenance tracing it back to John Singleton Moseby (or at least someone who fought with him). Needless to say, the barrels were cut to something like 14" long. The gun was a 10 Gauge, and my friend wants a 10 Gauge Pedersoli professionally shortened...BUT ONLY IF IT'S LEGAL! I'm also willing to do the same thing.

Is it legal to have the barrels of a legally antique shotgun shortened beyond the length that the NFA allows?

I looked for myself, read the text of the NFA, and found that any muzzleloading shotgun or rifle made into an SBR, SBS, or pistol would not legally be considered such. However, on a Federal level, is it all right? From what I've read and searched, yes. But I'm no legal expert, and want to be extra careful. I will not procede, nor will my friend, until we have first Federal and then state confirmation that it is legal. If it's not, we'll get our jollies from something else.

I managed to find this on the internet...

"CVA use to make a 70cal 'blunderbuss'...was fake, the bore wasn't flared at the end, just had a connon outside shape....Dixie use to sell a 'real' one (70cal. again, but at least the muzzle flared).

About the same time there was a 12" SXS 12ga. percusion shot gun offered.

ALL of them are gone.

In the Blackpowder Handbook-4th (current) edition, noticed an insertion by the editor (p.293). In it he claims that the BATF requires an 18" barrel even on repro shotguns. IF true, that doesn't explain all the short barreled flintlock/percusion smooth bore pistols still being sold...but if it's not true, then why did all the shoulder arms with barrels less than that length all dissapear at the same time?"

Some gunsmiths still make short-barreled shotguns or blunderbusses, and aren't penalized for it. Can anyone help me out here, or should I just write the ATF?

 

[musketman]

Is it legal to have the barrels of a legally antique shotgun shortened beyond the length that the NFA allows?

In my opinion I would have to say no, however, the antique guns that were shortened prior to the law's existence should be subjected to a grandfather clause, also check with your home state, some states have additional regulations about the ownership of shot barreled shotguns...

Now having a gun that is older than the sawed-off shotgun limit law doesn't mean you could cut it back further, this would be considered a modern alteration and it would then fall under the jurisdiction of the rule, besides, it would also kill any true value the antique gun has...

On a lighter note, welcome to the forum...

 

[Dalko110]

"the antique guns that were shortened prior to the law's existence should be subjected to a grandfather clause"

In that case, I know of one gun going for auction that was pretty much certainly shortened before 1898. However, it's a bit rusty, and would need to be reconditioned...one of the locks looks to be totally shot (the barrels appear to be sound, however). Would reconditioning the gun without altering the stock or barrels be legal?

Also, just out of curiosity, why is it legal to manufacture repro LeMat revolvers and smoothbore LePage pistols, along with blunderbusses that have sub-18" barrel lengths? And what is the current legal status of the "Cavalry Shotguns" that Navy Arms imported into the country?

 

[musketman]

Also, just out of curiosity, why is it legal to manufacture repro LeMat revolvers and smoothbore LePage pistols, along with blunderbusses that have sub-18" barrel lengths? And what is the current legal status of the "Cavalry Shotguns" that Navy Arms imported into the country?

I am aware that the Lamat has a shotgun tube as the center pin, I think black powder firearms may fall under the guise of a Non-Gun, that is probably how they get around the short barrel issue...

I have seen and held a 300 year old blunderbuss with a 12 inch barrel, it was a .90 caliber, these were common coach guns...

As far as the current legal status of shotguns imported into the country stands, I am willing to wager they are imported as "parts" and then assembled stateside to get around the issues...

 

[Dalko110]

On the other hand, the Pedersoli shotgun in its full-length form looks quite elegant (I'll tell my friend either to get a LeMat repro or simply cut the barrels to 20"), and would definitely be easier to clean than my ZAR "Four Pound" Martini-Henry (Black Powder cartridge rifles really pique my interest), being a smoothbore and all. I'm also an avid trap shooter, but am wondering since our trap club doesn't allow muzzleloaders, does anyone know of a good place in southern NY to go trap shooting with a blackpowder muzzleloading shotgun (I have heard of it being done)? Also, for trap, what gauge would you recommend? 10, 12, 16, or 20? Thanks in advance!

 

[Dalko110]

"I think black powder firearms may fall under the guise of a Non-Gun, that is probably how they get around the short barrel issue..."

Not to sound like a jerk, but doesn't that contradict what you said regarding the Pedersoli muzzleloading shotguns? Wouldn't they also be blackpowder firearms, thus non-guns, and thus I would be able to shorten the barrels? I'm just making sure.

For the record, I would not even THINK of shortening a shotgun that wasn't muzzleloading (or truly antique because of its historical value, for that matter).

 

[musketman]

Not to sound like a jerk, but doesn't that contradict what you said regarding the Pedersoli muzzleloading shotguns?

I was mostly making reference to antique guns, not modern replicas...

 

[Dalko110]

Sorry, just didn't get that. Anyway, with that idea now scrapped, was the blunderbuss you held British? I too had the opportunity to pick up an old (but not as old) blunderbuss with a flint-to-percussion conversion lock. It wasn't in bad shape, although the pricetag then kept it out of my hands. I believe it had a "Ketland"-marked lockplate. I've since found Ketland was in business during the 1760's-1790's, but the lock may have been fitted here to an American gun, so no idea whatsoever on the gun's manufacture date.

 

[musketman]

Mind you that it was back in 1983 when I examined that blunderbuss, it was 18th century German I believe...

 

[David Teague]

Hello All,

As I understand it, under federal law you can have a
muzzleloading firearm that has a shorter than 18 inch barrel (heck, I have a new blunderbuss that is under that...) and pistol with a shoulder stock... like my 51 Navy... both things that would earn you a long stay in a federal slammer if it was a current cartridge firearm...

Check your local laws just in case. A state run slammmer isn't any fun either. :shocked2:

Cheers,

DT

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. Dalko110,
Contact the ATF.
Best Wishes

 

[Russianblood]

That is the best answer.

In general, muzzleloading firearms under federal law are non-guns and not subject to NFA rules. Of course, your state may have more strict rules that must be taken into consideration.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I doubt you'll ever get an intelligent answer from BATF, as a gun dealer of 8 years I never saw any glimmer of intelligence among those people.
Muzzle loaders are considered non-firearms by the feds, otherwise smoothbore pistols would be illegal, as they are in breech loaders. Well, not "illegal" but requiring an expensive license.
Sile Distributors used to market a 14" barreled double, just what you're wanting, but dropped it for lack of interest years ago.
Anyhow, you'd be OK with the Feds but state and local laws are another mater.

 

[Dalko110]

Considering all the conflicting opinions, I think I'd write the ATF with a portion of the National Firearms Act's text attached, namely this one...

Subpart B””Definitions
§ 479.11 Meaning of terms.

Antique firearm.
Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

I also managed to find out what it would be considered under NY State law...like any other short-barreled muzzleloader, it would be considered an antique pistol. I'd need a license for it. Indiana law (FYI, in a little under 2 and a half years, I'll also be living in IN!) is less clear. While Indiana State Law prohibits the passing of gun control ordinances by anything below state level, thus I wouldn't have to worry about any local regs, they do disallow sawed off shotguns. That being said, they go along with the Federal definition of Antique Firearms, both under the NFA and GCA. This is the Indiana State Definition of a "sawed off shotgun"...

"IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
(1) manufactures;
(2) causes to be manufactured;
(3) imports into Indiana;
(4) keeps for sale;
(5) offers or exposes for sale; or
(6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a Class D felony.
(b) The presence of a weapon referred to in subsection (a) in a motor vehicle (as defined under IC 9-13-2-105(a)) except for school buses and a vehicle operated in the transportation of passengers by a common carrier (as defined in IC 8-2.1-17-4) creates an inference that the weapon is in the possession of the persons occupying the motor vehicle. However, the inference does not apply to all the persons occupying the motor vehicle if the weapon is found upon, or under the control of, one (1) of the occupants. In addition, the inference does not apply to a duly licensed driver of a motor vehicle for hire who finds the weapon in the licensed driver's motor vehicle in the proper pursuit of the licensed driver's trade.
(c) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person

who manufactures or imports for sale or sells a sawed-off shotgun to a law enforcement agency.
As added by P.L.1-1990, SEC.351. Amended by P.L.2-1991, SEC.107."

IMMEDIATELY after that is listed this...

"IC 35-47-5-5
Application of chapter
Sec. 5. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32."

You bet your life I'll actually ASK the guys, though, if I even decide to go through with it (it's not looking as "worth it" as it once was).

 

[bob1961]

PA is 16" last time i looked into it....thats what the law said....but shorting it yer self is the problem..........bob

 

[TANSTAAFL]

The replica LeMat 9 shot revolver with the approx. 18 gauge smoothbore bbl is legal. Saw one in action once with #6 shot, held a pretty tight pattern out to about 15 yards.

 

[sequoia]

"CVA use to make a 70cal 'blunderbuss'...was fake, the bore wasn't flared at the end, just had a connon outside shape....Dixie use to sell a 'real' one (70cal. again, but at least the muzzle flared).

By the by. I have a CVA Blunderbuss and it is flared at the end like a real blunderbus. I will try to post a picture later if I can get the @#$%^ camera to work.

 

[CrackStock]

Do not ask for opinions on this. The price of being wrong on this can be very high.

Look it up at:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

There is also a link to ask questions, but I believe that the answer will be clearly answered in the above.

If you still have questions, PM me.

CS

 

[jim gray]

I think that 16" is for rifles. The federal regultion for shotguns is 18" and no state law can allow a barrel shorter than the federal law allows. PA laws like the Feds' only apply to modern cartridge firearms.

Other states can and do regulate ML weapons, particularly handguns more strictly.

 

[Old Ironsights]

"IC 35-47-5-5
Application of chapter
Sec. 5. This chapter does not apply to any firearm not designed to use fixed cartridges or fixed ammunition, or any firearm made before January 1, 1899.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32."

Is why I I can have a caplock Howda but not a breech-loading one.

This gun:

Was made by an ATF licensed gunsmith and is used in CAS events - where ATF is often present.

If it's a non-NFA gun, it's a non-NFA gun as far as the ATF is concerned - unless you convert it (I don't know how) into an "other" "destructive device".