Hickok - RB or Conicals?
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Don't know of any of the old times who used anything but round balls. Every period mention I've seen states flatly that they used balls and a chamber full of FFg. Modern tests have also proven balls are superior to conicals for stopping humans.
He used both. The conicals came in little wood boxes as combustible cartridges. The box was a two part construction held together with a gummed label. Beneath the label was a pull string. The shooter pulled the string which ripped the label in two so that the sides of the box popped open exposing the cartridges (this was for the Colt brand- D.C. Sage used a monobloc). You rammed the cartridges into the chambers, capped the nipples, and fired away.
There is a lot of misconceptions about these cartridges. The percussion caps are powerful enough to bust through tin foil and newsprint- the combustible quality of the case was to eliminate the dangerous hazard of an ember remaining in the chamber.
Noted gun writer Elmer Keith in his book Sixguns claimed he thought the round balls were more accurate. I agree. The old time conicals didn't have any sort of driving band and the bullets could twist out of alignment in seating them. The powder charge was only 15-17 grains of black powder. With round balls you can cram in a lot more powder. I believe Hickok and his fellow shootist of the day would carry round balls with all the powder the chamber could hold- say 22 grains of black powder. The conicals( in the form of combustible cartridges) were emergency- back up ammunition. I also have read some documents were the towns employing the lawmen normally paid for a certain amount of combustible cartridges for each lawman- probably for practice shooting.
A few years ago Dixie Gun Works Black Powder Annual had an article about making combustible cartridges- call them and they'll know the year. Worth the $5.00.
There is a lot of misconceptions about these cartridges. The percussion caps are powerful enough to bust through tin foil and newsprint- the combustible quality of the case was to eliminate the dangerous hazard of an ember remaining in the chamber.
Noted gun writer Elmer Keith in his book Sixguns claimed he thought the round balls were more accurate. I agree. The old time conicals didn't have any sort of driving band and the bullets could twist out of alignment in seating them. The powder charge was only 15-17 grains of black powder. With round balls you can cram in a lot more powder. I believe Hickok and his fellow shootist of the day would carry round balls with all the powder the chamber could hold- say 22 grains of black powder. The conicals( in the form of combustible cartridges) were emergency- back up ammunition. I also have read some documents were the towns employing the lawmen normally paid for a certain amount of combustible cartridges for each lawman- probably for practice shooting.
A few years ago Dixie Gun Works Black Powder Annual had an article about making combustible cartridges- call them and they'll know the year. Worth the $5.00.
I agree that he would have used round balls in those 51's, probably with a chamber full of 3f. I also doubt whether Hickock would have wasted his time with the combustible cartridges with those puny charges. As far as having extra loads he carried two 51's a S&W 32 tip up and also, I believe, a 41 caliber derringer. He was not short of firepower by any stretch of the imagination.
Well vs some guys he was gun power lite , but thats another story. I can see him useing the cons only if gave to him, why/ if you shoot one gun with one load a bunch of years and can nail some guys heart at 50 yards or so would you monkey around with :hmm: what to use today what to use? :hmm: Just a thought. Fred :hatsoff:
I'm bettin he used roundballs just because the short conicals of the day were often not that accurate and, as fw pointed out he would go with what he was most familiar with.
As most really good snap pistol shooters well know, you develop a "feel" for where the shot is going and this "feel" is only gained over a long period of time and many shots fired with the most repeatable load you can find.
Someone like Hickok would just "think" his shot to where he wanted it to be and lo and behold, it would be there. (My dad could do this but I never was able to.)
zonie
As most really good snap pistol shooters well know, you develop a "feel" for where the shot is going and this "feel" is only gained over a long period of time and many shots fired with the most repeatable load you can find.
Someone like Hickok would just "think" his shot to where he wanted it to be and lo and behold, it would be there. (My dad could do this but I never was able to.)
zonie
fw said:
You hit the nail on the head! Besides being fast and accurate, there has to be what many call the "killer instinct". It's that threshold between having to think about the results or morality of shooting another human and the level where you react instinctively and shoot. Lot of those gunfighters had it and a very few today.
I was laid up on the oxy all night but still packing my 1000's of books away and came across this in 1984 "Guns and Ammo" Im cutting it down a bunch (its about Brit hand guns of the 1850s thru WW1 Welby Admes Trater ect and how they closed London Colt with letters from he front the first was " I had one of your largest..50cal DA (called self cocking) fighting the Russkies ..he found hinself surounded and if he had to cock before each shot he would of been dead not just a baynet thru the leg (anyone want to get hit with 577 rimfire?? :rotf: the 2ND in India a oficer was charged by a sword swinging sepoy (a mutineer)and he was unfortunately armed with the Colt 51 "small cal" 36, "and sharp-pointed pickett bullets and heavy charge of powder" YOU Know the rest the guy walked up to the off while he shot him 6 times with 5 going thru the center of the chest the sepoy chopped him from top of head thru the teeth then fell over dead. Anyone NOT want to use balls??? :rotf: Thanks Fred :hatsoff: ( Wild Bill was dumb Id bet the farm on RB's.)
Mark Twian in his book Roughing it (a good read) talks about coming into Carson City and a guy had been shot six times. Probably a pistol- likely a 51 Navy. Other the other hand there are accounts of guys being shot dead on the spot- right between the eyes. In any event, with some of the 36 caliber stuff- shot placement was probably a vital aspect of the shoot out. Today we expect knock down power from our modern cartridges- in fact if you defended yourself in a home invasion and shot somebody "right between the eyes" you would probably get in trouble for a trigger happy type. I think the big selling point on the navy is it was a lot lighter than the Dragoon type guns and it pointed well.
Old Charlie
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Knock down power is dependant on whether or not you hit bone. I saw a guy get hit just about his belly button with a .357 Mag. He Didn't even stagger let alone knock him down. He did collapse a few seconds later. But he survived.
Old Charlie
Old Charlie
" in fact if you defended yourself in a home invasion and shot somebody "right between the eyes" you would probably get in trouble for a trigger happy type. I think the big selling point on the navy is it was a lot lighter than the Dragoon type guns and it pointed well. " WELL ya neede to move to TEXAS a guy ,gal anything but a dog steps in your yard ya can startblasting from the sounds of the news paper and cops here, And a many a great shooter has said the Navy 51 is the best pointer ever made, now Colt his self thought I belive it was the Trapper?? Aboutthe same thing shorter barrel and no rammer. Fred :hatsoff:
Thats like the story I've told on here and true about the "biker hit" twice with a 44 Blackhawk mag right thru the heart and he left the hospital a week later, they shoot 1 to close , from a few feet away, 2 dint hit anything that would break. :shake: when you lift a Harley -Davidson up off the ground every few days working on them ya get to growing all kinds of bulk qround ya I guess. And no ,no one knows who or what happened to the 2 shootrs, But as you said ya got to hit something. ALSO I've (and cant be the only one) have run across lead that is much softer than RB's I buy SO what is this stuff, it would really spread out shot at ya. Fred :hatsoff:
