Historical accuracy in big manufacturers

[Capt. Jas.]

Some folks are just to tight to purchase quality!

Or only think they can afford what they have to spend right at the moment with whats burning a hole in their pocket instead of saving for quality like most of us did.

 

[Stophel]

Some folks are just to tight to purchase quality!

A lot of people make a lot more money than I do. And they spend it. On anything and everything. But when it comes to guns, they get TIGHT with that wallet. They seem to think that everything gun-related should cost the same as it did 60 years ago. Grumbling about a $1500 price tag... as they get in their brand new $50,000 pick up truck and drive away.

I'm probably the poorest member of this forum and even I could come up with the dough for a good quality gun if I really wanted one.... of course, I can make what I want, myself. Still, even the stock blank and parts cost more than most people want to pay for a finished gun...

 

[Bob McBride]

Or only think they can afford what they have to spend right at the moment with whats burning a hole in their pocket instead of saving for quality like most of us did.

Truer words were never spoken....

 

[Jay Templin]

Or only think they can afford what they have to spend right at the moment with whats burning a hole in their pocket instead of saving for quality like most of us did.

If I had waited to buy a custom built gun, I’d have missed out on 35 years of black powder shooting! Half a loaf is, as they say, better than none.
Jay

 

[toot]

it seems that reproduction weapons are heading to be costing more than ORIGIONAL ONES!

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

The parts alone are expensive enough for most people. The time and skill needed for the job adds a price only the most dedicated are willing to pay.

Speaking of bespoke customs, the market is tiny. The Peders, Invies, Tommys, and Lymies make good enough guns for the masses so the sell a lot. And it’s only those dedicated few who even begin to care (or know) about the arcane differences.

 

[Okie Hog]

Don't care about the historical accuracy of mass produced muzzleloaders. My wife and i are blessed, i could buy an expensive custom muzzleloader but don't want one. Some friends have custom muzzleloaders that don't shoot as well as my second hand ones.

 

[mushka]

Major manufacturers are able to make and sell everything they make. Why make changes that only a few would even care or know about having an HC gun. I'm just glad that they are making decent functional guns. If one wants an HC gun, build it himself.

 

[Howard Pippin]

Some folks are just to tight to purchase quality!

The only people I ever met that were too tight to buy quality were those that had way too much money in the first place, but it's really not fair to judge all of us with the same ruler, I have many hobbies ,muzzleloading shooting is just one of them. Some people devote their entire off time to pursuing one hobby which, by the way, is probably good for them. I like working on small engines, building things that don't account for anything, watching TV, playing on my computers and just visiting. After all that gets done I might even go out and shoot a few balls or even cast a few, but I'm not doing it because I'm tight. My $229 traditions percussion is just as much fun to shoot as my flintlock, but sometimes I even use an unmentionable.

 

[Bob McBride]

My buddy and I make about the same money. He has a new 4x4 diesel truck, an old bass boat, $30k Razr, and an TC Renegade. His grandfather left him the old home place when he was 18. That’s him in a nutshell. He thinks any gun over $275 is idiotic. I have an old truck, an old 4 wheeler, an old Pontoon boat, a dozen Custom flintlock rifles. I think an $80k pickup is idiotic. He pokes fun at my truck and my crotchety old 4wheeler, and says my pontoon feels like a 20’ long floating trailer park. I raise an eyebrow when he gets out of his pretty truck with his TC, wearing a Fedora with a Turkey feather on the brim and dressed like Little Jimmy Dickens.....

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The OP's question was why don't mass producers copy historical guns more closely and the simple answer is they have no profit driven incentive to do so. With CNC machining, there is no technical reason they cannot do so.

EXACTLY!

The Pedersoli Bess is a prime example. It was introduced before the Bicentennial, and hasn't really changed since. An apocryphal tale is that Pedersoli got hold of what they thought was a) the "correct" musket for 1775, as the pattern had been adopted by the Brits several years prior to the AWI..., and b) was a good example of that type of musket. We now know that the SLP Bess while having its "pattern" adopted around 1769, there were so many of the older LLP Bess available in good working order, that the SLP Bess [Perdersoli's version] didn't see anywhere near universal use by troops in the AWI. Coupled with the fact that the Pedersoli version is missing some details found on numerous authentic SLP Bess today..., so, perhaps what Pedersoli copied, was a version supplied in smaller numbers or very close but not what would've been considered an actual Army Bess back in its day.

THEN you have the Japanese copy, and they made theirs with a damaged trigger guard. It is said this was because what they copied was an original with a trigger guard of that shape...,

BUT...., reenactors doing from the F&I to the Napoleonic era, thus including the AWI, started using both the Jap and Italian muskets, because that was what was available, and affordable (compared to a fully correct, custom build). The Pedersoli musket is still being sold after about five decades have elapsed since its introduction, even after the history has come to light about how it appears. IF it was sold today in enough numbers to be a "foundation product" for Pedersoli, and if sales suddenly dropped because folks were demanding a LLP Bess, or if another company produced an LLP Bess of the same quality as the Pedersoli for a similar price..., Pedersoli would have to retool to retain its business, OR would entirely discontinue the product.

LD

 

[old ugly]

for the manufacturing companies to make money they have to standardise production (henry ford's model T), no company wants to change tooling unless the market demands it (henry ford's model A) .
the store bought part of the market has not been influenced enough by HC part of this hobby and they may never. probably, at this point in time, sales are good enough and demand for more HC is low enough that they keep going with what they know.

from there and off topic
the store bought mass produced muzzleloaders are cheap enough that eveyone can afford one, a good thing, it gives people a start in the hobby, from there they can grow or go on shooting a easy to afford gun and have fun with it.
i started with TC and loved it but eventually grew out of it. some are still shooting TC and love them.
ou
tom

 

[Omahkapi'si]

All I can tell ya is I love my Pedersoli Frontier.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I suppose this could have also gone under the percussion subforum, but for some reason it seemed to make a bit more sense for me to put it here.
I've long seen on this forum and others the criticism (not unwarranted) that factory produced sidelocks are seldom, if ever, historically accurate in their appearance.
I totally get that manufacturing methods are going to be different.

My question is this: does anyone have an insight into why the guns put out by the big manufacturers like Pedersoli, InvestArms, etc don't model their guns off of surviving examples, and not a vague nothing of what a sidekick is supposed to look like? I know that styles changed over time and geography so not every school could be represented. But that doesn't mean that the gun they do produce have to have no connection to any place/time in history.

I might be misunderstanding the criticism, but my impression has been that the combination of the shape of the stock, choice of furniture, and style of lock are not generally reflective of anything and even all those component pieces might not be as well.
If my takeaway is correct, what gives? Is the average consumer of these guns not going to care or notice? Is it a price point thing somehow? Ergonomics?
As for me, I'm not what the reenactment world terms a "stitch counter" but neither do I like to be farby, even when just out shooting by myself. I'd much prefer something that looks period correct over something that's not, but I'm still relatively new and while I can tell that such and such manufacturer's model X is wrong, I generally can't articulate how it is. They just look different to the originals I've seen in person and books/internet.
I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.
Thanks,
-dgfd

With some weapons, Pedersoli does copy originals.

 

[old ugly]

All I can tell ya is I love my Pedersoli Frontier.

 

[Pete G]

With some weapons, Pedersoli does copy originals.

Which ones??? I've only seen "somewhat close" copies (including my own).

 

[The Hawken Shop®]

Just for some input.
The mission of The Hawken Shop® is to continue the legacy of Samuel Hawken the man. We try to do this through a representation of his Mountain/Plains rifle. The rifle we produce is a compilation of the best features of the Hawken rifle, put together by Art Ressell in the 1960's.
Since Hawken built rifles one at a time, each is unique so there is no "set", exact features to duplicate.
Anyone building a Hawken type rifle is correct in that they are interested in the history of Sam Hawken and his rifle.

 

[dogfood]

Which ones??? I've only seen "somewhat close" copies (including my own).

I'd be very interested to know as well. Maybe some of their military muskets?

On that note, I very much hate when a new person asks on the forum what period their the pedersoli they just picked uprepresents and then gets some snide and unhelpful "hurr durr...twentieth century italy, duh" response.

 

[TFoley]

Hell, for the price of some of these pedersoli guns, you can get a Kibler! And I bet it’s a better gun!

That's a Kibler KIT.

Better than a Pedersoli? Sure it is, after all, it's 'hand-made'.

By you - the only craftsman in the world who can build it and not charge a bean for doing so.

Just how much do you think an Italian craftsman - and yes, there are a LOT of Italian gun craftsmen, or else the world would not be beating a path to the doors of Messrs Perazzi, Beratta and Rizzini - would charge you to 'assemble' one of Mr Kibler's excellent kits?

2000eu? 3000eu?

Needs thinking about.

 

[Stophel]

On that note, I very much hate when a new person asks on the forum what period their the pedersoli they just picked uprepresents and then gets some snide and unhelpful "hurr durr...twentieth century italy, duh" response.

But that's the truth. Flat out. It's not kinda sorta close, even. Telling someone anything otherwise is NOT "helpful".

As for "snide", I would dare say that the snideness is far more often perceived than actual. People often don't like the answers. So much so that they take personal offense to them.