Historically Incorrect, or (A Story of Thread Counting and Delrin Rods)

[Rudyard]

I think looking back we should recall how our hobby got started. Guys getting together to shoot old guns. They form the NMLRA
Then some boys started dressing in the best Hollywood version of what they thought was proper clothing for the gun.
Centennial of the WBTS show up. Intrest starte to generate in the mid 1950s and reinactments started. Zouaves from Dixie gun works, Blue Or gray gas station kackies and a kipi via Disney Land.
And other boys wanting to be Fess Parker.
everyone of us is on a journey.

Tengun You have away with words , Your summary is almost poetry . Regards Rudyard

 

[tenngun]

Thank you, of corse my feet show it bing Longfellows

 

[rmark]

I draw the line at historically correct surgery.

 

[sportster73hp]

Being a shooter I never thought of dress until shooting bp guns. At a match my buddy and i were informed we were not dressed hc. There was a pause and he responded “ my rifle is a 1970’s pattern Thompson so blue jeans and t-shirt is correct”

 

[sportster73hp]

That is sort of a line for some isn’t it? CNCing? I think Kibler’s contribution is making guns similarly to the way factory guns are made but with correct architecture, top quality parts, much tighter custom-like specs and at a much cheaper price than a custom gun, bringing that sort of quality to more folks. Seems there’s a market for that. Kibler’s are closer to a $3500 custom gun than anything else but priced more like a Pedersoli. Pretty hard to hate on that, even for an HC guy. I guarantee as soon as he announces a Brown Bess every hard nose stitch counter will have his deposit in.

Sign me up. And I don’t count stiches

 

[j.robert.martin.ii]

This a gun not considered to be period or historically correct but it shoots good and I have a lot of fun shooting it. One of the items pictured is authentic View attachment 59198

Authentic 'stones' seem to be of the maker's original design.... with some noticeable weathering and patina.

 

[galamb]

I avoid this type of discussion since I will "never" build a rifle myself with a hand forged barrel mounted in a stock that "no power tool" helped shape.

I figure that I would have to stretch the definition of HC quite some way unless I totally disregard the method used to make the components.

Kinda like the "Made in USA" - is it still made in USA if the caveat exists "from domestic and imported components"???

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

I understand the HC/PC guys and that's fine, but I dont have the time, space or resources to do that. I got into BPML for the style of shooting and the challenge of hunting with it. I like old-fashioned style equipment and accessories but it's limited to my budget. I use wood, steel, brass and leather whenever possible but there is a little plastic and nylon thrown in here and there. As was said before, if it feels good, do it.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I like to shoot my muzzleloaders, of which I own a few. A parts built plains rifle with a TC trigger, lock and multiple barrels (.54 Renegade, .54 GM drop in slow twist and building a 20 smoothbore Rice drop in atm). Stock from Pecatonica hand carved and sand cast iron hardware. She is far from perfect being my first, but I love to shoot her! Also have a .50 Lyman GPH kit build and .50 Late Lancaster self build by previous owner, which I converted to percussion. A few more also but these are my favourites. Of these, only the Lancaster is really PC/HC, but not for my area (NW Alberta). I like to try an dress to look the part of late trapper/hunter, but my clothes are not hand stitched for the most part, not even my smoke tanned native made moose hide mukluks. My commercial tanned leather leggings do look awful bright, but time and use will fix that. They are hand stitched btw, lol. Still, I like what I got and use what I like. I have been scoffed at and looked down the nose at by some of those who biblically portray the 1805-20 era (our local clubs period, and the only club to my awareness in the province). It doesn’t stop me from having my fun though. To me, that’s what it’s all about.
Walk

 

[rich pierce]

History is my main interest. I love studying original guns and re-creating them. I have many books and hundreds of saved articles. I’ve learned what makes a Dickert a Dickert, a Beck a Beck, a Bonewitz a Bonewitz, an Oerter an Oerter, just to pick a few well known Pennsylvania makers. I’m not interested in making generic Lancaster rifles or generic “early Virginia” rifles. Even new school Woodbury rifles don’t make my list of “going to build one someday”. The actual history aactual historical material culture is what interests me.
I also like to compete in shooting matches and have no issue shooting a side-slapper over the log gun that has no historical roots. I just won’t bother to build one that is not historically based.
I don’t need to dress period to shoot at the range or hunt but in the right circumstances it adds to my experience. It’s not going to work for me to hunt in a suburban woods in earshot of a highway with period correct flintlock and garb. The experience is already lost. But when far enough out there to feel it’s real, a historically based gun and gear enhances my experience.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

This is a very interesting topic. I used to be in the camp of "let's go to a Rendezvous get wild, chase girls and get drunk!" I had a Muzzleloader and did shoot it but I usually missed the rendezvous shoots because my buddies and I were up all night drinking and getting rowdy. This was the late 70's. Most of the guys were wearing orange buckskins, a 3" belt with a Green River knife, a Capote, one of those hair pipe chokers, some kind of fur hat with the head in the front, Dyer's moccasins, and shooting a "Hawkins" (not a Hawken) rifle. Everyone had a "Possibles Bag" (Not a shooting or hunting pouch mind ya!), a powder horn, and a medicine bag. Now that I look back I realize we were all very influenced by Hollywood and we looked pretty ridiculous but you know what we felt like "Mountain Men" by God and we had fun!

Fast forward to today there's less "rowdy" drinking and girl chasing and my interests are in building and hunting with muzzleloaders, attending NMLRA shooting events, and the history is more important to me now but it depends on where I'm shooting. I'm into learning about everything from French and Indian war, revolutionary war, the Long Hunters, the Frontiersmen, Explorers and Settlers of the 18th century. I enjoy reading and doing some research and trying to improve my understanding of how the world looked to people back then, how they lived and died, hunted, dressed, survived and thrived. When hunting or tramping around in my woods I like to experiment with my guns, accoutrements, tools, and clothes that I have made or acquired. I know my kit is not perfectly PC/HC but I don't really care as long as it simulates an experience that I enjoy and can learn from. I don't consider myself an expert, but I like talking about the subject with like minded folks.

So I guess I went from the "Rowdy Rendezvous" camp to the,.. as you said @Bob McBride "history buff who’s primary hobby is shooting" camp.

As far as what others are doing is up to each person to decide. I won't judge! You can be a stitch counter, just count your own and don't be a eyeball'n ma footwear choice and tell me "it's wrong for my persona" or you might find out my "persona" will lift yer hair!

 

[OhioHawkeye]

I think looking back we should recall how our hobby got started. Guys getting together to shoot old guns. They form the NMLRA
Then some boys started dressing in the best Hollywood version of what they thought was proper clothing for the gun.
Centennial of the WBTS show up. Intrest starte to generate in the mid 1950s and reinactments started. Zouaves from Dixie gun works, Blue Or gray gas station kackies and a kipi via Disney Land.
And other boys wanting to be Fess Parker.
everyone of us is on a journey.

Well, that's the way Rendezvous started...but reenactments of the Civil War started right after the Civil War. I imagine Rev war happenings occurred prior to that.
There have always been rifle and other shooting competitions in the USA. Long before there was a USA.
We humans are a competitive lot.

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

When the HC/PC subject comes up (someone told me I'm not) I ask them, what do you do about the car or truck that brought you here? What about the gunpowder you bought that came in a plastic jug? Did you eat breakfast at McDonalds this morning or by a campfire sitting on a log? Are you taking any modern medications from a doctor in an office building? Putting gasoline in that internal combustion engine or do you ride a horse everywhere you go? I mean, how far are we getting into this? You can go crazy with it but you can't go back in time.

 

[OhioHawkeye]

... I mean, how far are we getting into this? You can go crazy with it but you can't go back n time.

Thank God we can't.
Most folks I know wouldn't be alive if it were 250 years ago, myself included. I would have died at 30 of appendicitis. ...I nearly did anyway. But, I do know a few people who do or have lived full time in a small cabin. A couple in tents and one in a tepee year round. I also know someone who only has a horse for transportation.

But then, actually going back in time isn't the point, is it. It is about honoring our history. Each of us try to do that to the level we are comfortable with.

 

[kje54]

Thank God we can't.
Most folks I know wouldn't be alive if it were 250 years ago, myself included. I would have died at 30 of appendicitis. ...I nearly did anyway. But, I do know a few people who do or have lived full time in a small cabin. A couple in tents and one in a tepee year round. I also know someone who only has a horse for transportation.

But then, actually going back in time isn't the point, is it. It is about honoring our history. Each of us try to do that to the level we are comfortable with.

I agree but there's more than simply honoring our history if one is involved in living histories, it's teaching by "going back in time" in the present. That's the one area that needs to be as authentic as possible if one is playing a first person role otherwise we become another version of Hollywood "history". If you're only into shooting/hunting then there's really no need to be historically correct unless one chooses to be, if one is reenacting then every attempt to be historically correct should be made within one's means. I say that about reenacting because it's not as important because when it comes down to it just how historically correct are the actual reenactments themselves? That doesn't mean show up in ripstop camo carrying an AR or in 1950s western wear carrying a model 94 Winchester...........

 

[rich pierce]

The idea that we can’t go back in time, so why bother with historical accuracy is an excellent example of the logical fallacy known as the Nirvana fallacy. Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia
In other words, if something cannot be done perfectly it should not be done at all. In this case, get a carbon fiber muzzleloader with aluminum mounts and a piezoelectric ignition system and you’re as good to go as if you had a rifle based on historical examples. That would work for some. And more power to them! But don’t play with logical fallacies and pretend they are logical. Just say, “this is what works for me and that other thing does not.”

 

[Bob McBride]

The idea that we can’t go back in time, so why bother with historical accuracy is an excellent example of the logical fallacy known as the Nirvana fallacy. Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia
In other words, if something cannot be done perfectly it should not be done at all. In this case, get a carbon fiber muzzleloader with aluminum mounts and a piezoelectric ignition system and you’re as good to go as if you had a rifle based on historical examples. That would work for some. And more power to them! But don’t play with logical fallacies and pretend they are logical. Just say, “this is what works for me and that other thing does not.”

Excellent point, and thanks for providing the link. The related informal fallacy, "the perfect solution fallacy" is worth a moment of consideration as well....

The perfect solution fallacy is a related informal fallacy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented.[4] This is an example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and, as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes.

 

[Irishmusket]

Actually, I use what works for me... or, that which I can actually get my hands on. Delrin rods... seem to work... in my "Historically Incorrect Hawken Style short rifle" with screw adjustable rear sight. A 28" 50 caliber is probably not historically correct... but, it works. My 45 Thompson Center 45 Cal and 27" barrel... is also... probably not 'historically correct' . With all of that polished brass on it... it does look a lot like a rifle Robert Redford used in a movie wherein Redford portrayed some fictional character called... Jeremiah Johnson... I understand that some people like being history buffs with what they believe to be historically correct or period correct... equipment, props, and costumes... I just like using stuff that works. I enjoy seeing the historically correct and period correct stuff... I simply do not care to own all of that...stuff.

The actual rifle that Redford used was an Ivest arms made in Italy

 

[confederatemule]

Does HC/PC mean historically correctly/period correct? If not what does it mean?

To me those two terms mean the same exact thing.

Mule

 

[kje54]

Does HC/PC mean historically correctly/period correct? If not what does it mean?

To me those two terms mean the same exact thing.

Mule

Not necessarily, I could have a historically correct Southern Mountain Rifle but it wouldn't be period correct if I was taking it to F & I events. Blanket capotes are historically correct from the Rev War onward but not period correct for F & I. Original blue jeans would be historically correct for the late 1800s but not period correct for when Jacob Davies first introduced his rivet strengthened, double sewn seams work pants originally made from canvas sailcloth.