Horn engraving question

[Turtle Creek]

Would anyone know or have seen the rank
Sergeant Major engraved or spelled as it would have been abbreviated in the late 1700's?
Looking to put that on a horn.
Thanks

 

[Rifleman1776]

Sounds like some Google time is coming up for you. :grin:

 

[Artificer]

Not sure if Sergeant Major was a Title back then, rather than a Rank.

I don't have a copy of Von Steuben's Drill Manual as republished in 1794, but that might be a good place to look.

Sorry I can't be of more assistance.
Gus
Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines, (ret)

P.S. Can't put my rank on an authentic powder horn as the rank wasn't created until the second half of the 20th century. SHUCKS!!

 

[Wes/Tex]

According to the site www.usarak.army.mil The rank of Sergeant Major was begun in the Continental army in 1776 and Steuben defined the postion as being an assistant to the regimental adjutant. He kept rosters, formed details and handled matters concerning the "internal management and discipline of the regiment". Additionally, there were also Quartermaster Sergeant, First Sergeant, Sergeant and Corporal in the NCO rank. There was no mention of exactly how the rank may have been spelled out or abbreviated. The British army was different and I don't know exactly when the RSM for Regimental Sergeant Major came into effect there. Most period horns of that era I've seen are usually done in block letters, much easier to carve on a horn body than script. Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

A Master Gunnery Seargent of Marines can put his title on any damn thing he pleases. :thumbsup:

Thank you for your service. :hatsoff:

Semper Fi!!

 

[Artificer]

Hi Wes/Tex, :hatsoff:

OK, I am not so quite rushed as I was earlier, so allow me to somewhat muddle through what I meant by Sergeant Major being a title rather than a rank in the earliest periods. We still somewhat have Titles and Ranks/Ratings in the Armed Forces today that are not the same thing as the early periods, but can be almost as confusing to those in different Armed Services.

In the U.S. Armed Forces, this goes back before Turtlecreek’s or my time as Pay Grade E-9’s (though I personally despise using Pay Grades for anything other than “sorting out” seniority of rank or rating between the Armed Services when we are not as familiar with the rank/rating structure of a different Service.) For example and as I remember, Turtlecreek is a retired Army Command Sergeant Major. Though he did not receive any more pay than any other Sergeant Major, he is considered Senior to other Sergeants Major who are not Command Sergeants Major and Turtlecreek and other Command Sergeants Major are Junior to the Sergeant Major of the Army. Though we Marines don’t have a formal distinction amoung Sergeants Major as the Army does; we have Titles like Battalion Sergeant Major, Regimental Sergeant Major, Division Sergeant Major, Base Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps - where each one is Senior to the Title before it in this list. I won’t go into Navy Ratings as I don’t want to confuse folks even further. Grin. I apologize to the forum for bringing in modern ranks, but I think it necessary for Forum Members who are Modern Veterans.

Going back only to the early 20th century for Marines and I think the Army as well; though we had Ranks like Quartermaster Sergeant, First Sergeant, and Sergeant Major that established Seniority of Title/Position ”“ they still all were considered “Sergeants” and got paid as Sergeants. So in the very unusual event if a Sergeant Major in the period “got busted” to First Sergeant, he lost the Title of Sergeant Major, but not the pay ”“ except for a fine he may have paid. This goes back through the 19th century and I think/believe the 18th century as well ”“ though I’m not certain of that in the 18th century. (It was only later in the 20th century that there were increases in pay for these ranks that we know as “Pay Grades” today.)

In the British Armed Forces, things started out very similar for we Americans, but of course we were under the same “system” until the Revolution. “Officially” we were British until the Treaty of Paris 1783 in the eyes of the rest of the world, though we had declared ourselves independent with the Declaration of Independence. Like the British, we had Battalion and Regimental Sergeants Major, but those were Titles/Ranks who also got paid as Sergeants (as far as the research I’ve been able to do).

I am not exactly sure when this happened, but in the 19th century or perhaps the early 20th century, the rank of Regimental Sergeant Major in the British Royal Army and Royal Marines became a Warrant Officer Rank and rates a salute by other Enlisted Men. Battalion Sergeants Major are enlisted and do not rate a salute.

Fortunately for me and for good will amoung Allies, I knew this when I was a young Corporal in the early 70’s while a member of a party of U.S. Marines on a short exchange program with the Royal Scots Greys. When I officially reported in to the Sergeant Major, I wasn’t sure if he was a Regimental Sergeant Major or not. So I formally announced my rank and name to the Sergeant Major for temporary duty on the Exchange Program. Then I begged the Sergeant’s Major pardon and asked if he was a Regimental Sergeant Major. Though his face did not change, I noted just a touch of a questioning look in his eyes when he said, “I am.” At that I said, “Again my apology, Sergeant Major, SIR!” and snapped to Attention and saluted him, which he returned. Then he told me it was a very unusual thing for a young Yank NCO to know he rated a salute. I replied, “Scots Wha Hae, Sergeant Major, Sir.” That got me off on very good footing with him and the Scots Greys.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Semper Fi, my Brother !! :hatsoff:

Though I have taken "Anachronistic Liberties" by re-enlisting in the Modern Marine Corps twice in the Uniform of a Confederate Marine Sergeant and my final re-enlistment in a Confederate Marine Sergeant's Major Uniform (only because they didn't have Master Gunnery Sergeants in the Confederate Marines)- I won't go so far as putting that rank on a Powder Horn as that is too anachronistic even for me. Grin.

I very much appreciate the thought, though.

Gus

 

[pargent]

In the British Army the rank of Sgt. Major was first used in 1680 as the senior ranking Sgt in a company , that evolved into two levels of rank RSM Regimental Sgt.Major or WO1 (warrant officer 1 ) and CSM Company Sgt.Major WO2 (warrant officer 2) and it remains that way to-day , in the Cavalry the terms used are Regiment and Squadron .

 

[pargent]

So pre 1775 any American Regiment on the British establishment would at best have had 1 RSM and a CSM for each Company .

 

[Artificer]

In the British Army the rank of Sgt. Major was first used in 1680 as the senior ranking Sgt in a company , that evolved into two levels of rank RSM Regimental Sgt.Major or WO1 (warrant officer 1 ) and CSM Company Sgt.Major WO2 (warrant officer 2) and it remains that way to-day , in the Cavalry the terms used are Regiment and Squadron .

Perhaps I don't understand fully, but how could a CSM be higher in rank than the RSM? OK, I just looked up modern British Rank and perhaps it is because the numbers after WO in the British Army mean something different compared to American Warrant Officers?

In the British Army is WO 1 the senior WO and WO2 is junior, IOW as the numbers get higher, the rank is lower?

Hmmmm....thinking about it more, there were 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Lieutenants (and Sub Alterns) in the British Army and as the numbers got higher, the rank was lower.

Gus

 

[pargent]

WO1 RSM is the higher rank . :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

Your question really intrigued me a good deal.

I just finished re-reading "Cuthbertson's System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry" and there is not a single instance of abbreviating the rank of Sergeant Major even though the rank is mentioned many times. I thought it would be abbreviated on the reporting forms in the Appendices, but the only two ranks abbreviated there were "Capt." for Captain and "Lieut. Colonel" for Lieutenant Colonel and the last on ONLY one form.

Cuthbertson seems to have had an aversion to abbreviating any rank in the text of his work. I was a bit surprised when talking about what we would call Privates, in each case it is listed most commonly as "Private - Man/Men" or less frequently as "Private Man/Men."

Cuthbertson does stick to very standard spellings for Sergeant Major and they are:

Serjeant-Major (All forms of Sergeant are spelled "Serjeant" with a "J" instead of a "G.")

Serjeant-Majors (For the Plural of Serjeant-Major instead of "Sergeants Major" as we use it today. BTW, this plural form is common for the British Army right up to the present day, though they changed the spelling to Sergeant Majors (Sergeant being now spelled with a "G").

Serjeant-Major's (For the possessive form, I.E. as in belonging to the Serjeant-Major in some fashion.)

The common form of abbreviating the word "Company" in the 18th century British Military was "Coy" rather than the "Co." we use today. This may give us a clue on how the rank "Serjeant-Major" MAY have been abbreviated, though it is just speculation.

My best guess for an American to abbreviate the rank of Sergeant Major at the end of the 18th century would be either "Srjt Mjr" or "Sjt Mjr," though of course either might be wrong.

Actually with the rather loose spelling that was commonly accepted at the time, almost any abbreviation of the rank might have been encountered.

Yr Obt Srvt (One of a few ways in the 18th century to end a correspondence as an abbreviation for "Your Obedient Servant.")
Gus

 

[Turtle Creek]

Great responses all...thanks.
You're right of course about the spelling as every original document I've ever seen had the writers 'spellin' as he saw fit.
I suspect I'll use your ideas as a starting point and mis spell it appropriately.

Good story about the exchange program...those were great.

We, my unit, had an exchange program with the SAS.
When you went you had to go thru their selection program first.
The orders that came down said to not send a black soldier...specifically, saw it myself.
So we sent a black guy E7, Bobby H, great guy.
They taunted him in selection talking about 'wogs' etc. No problem.
He did so well in selection and operationally that they offered him British citizenship, the same rank with TIG in the Brit system when his time was up.
I had 3 SAS assigned to my team for a 6 month period...good boys all.
My family is Scott's so would of enjoyed a trip north.

P.S. the BEST thing about being a CSM/SGM is you can say things Officers cannot and get away with it.
My last 5 years I worked at GO level and the Cols./BG's, who were generally great Americans, just couldn't bust the bosses balls.
I could...and I could because of all the great CSM's that preceded me carving out that niche.

Thanks for the info gents.

 

[Artificer]

So pre 1775 any American Regiment on the British establishment would at best have had 1 RSM and a CSM for each Company .

Yes, indeed, though from more research I've done it seems that if a British Regiment was at full strength with two Battalions, then each Bn could have had or usually did have its own RSM and especially so if the Bn's were not in the same geographic location.

I found your information very interesting. I had not earlier realized that there were Company Sergeants Major (or Sergeant Majors in the British Tradition) going back that far. They did and still do basically the same job that our Company First Sergeants do. It seems one of the significant differences put forth by Von Steuben was to change from CSM's to First Sergeants for the American Army and instead of a RSM, to just have the rank of Sergeant Major at the Regimental Level in the American Army.

I also learned that British CSM's and RSM's first received their Warrants with the Cardwell Reforms of 1881 and do not rate a salute, BUT are to be formally addressed as "Sir." I thought a RSM did rate a salute and after saluting the Scots Greys RSM, I thought he meant both my use of "Sir" and a salute to him was proper. Well even if saluting him was not proper, I don't regret it a bit and he took it as the sincere sign of respect I meant it to be.

I did find one site entitled, "The Sergeant Major during the American Revolution. The Forgotten Soldier?" Submitted by Brian VandePolder 2nd Penn'a Reg't. (I guess "Reg't" is the period correct way to abbreviate Regiment? As a Private-Man in the Forty Twa,' I did not have to know such things. :grin: ) It talks about some of the similarities and some of the differences amoung British and American "Serjeant-Majors" during the ARW.
http://www.nwta.com/couriers/4-96/sergeant.html

This thread has also helped me better understand one of the Yeoman Warders I met at the Tower of London in 1996. I asked our Bus Tour Guide if I was correct that all the Warders (aka Beefeaters)were retired British Service members. She told me they were, but they had to have retired on at least 22 years service. She also informed me that the Yeoman Warders ONLY came from the Army and Air Force as there was still a prejudice against the Navy for that assignment. I asked why and she told me it was because so many of the Navy enlisted had to be impressed by force and were thought to be, well, scum to put it in a word, though she said it very much more politely.

After we saw the little bit of armour and arms still at the Tower (they had moved the Small Arms to Leeds just a couple years before we got there), I spotted a Yeoman Warder standing alone and he looked VERY squared away even amoungst his fellow Warders. So I walked over to him and asked if I could ask him a few questions. I asked about only the Army and Air Force veterans being allowed to serve and he told me that had changed some time before. So I asked him what Service he had retired from and he said, "The Royal Marines." I grinned ear to ear and said, "Then per mare per terram, from an American Marine cousin and I would be honored to shake your hand!" We shook hands warmly and he replied with "Semper Fidelis."

I informed him I was a Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines and asked what his rank was. He replied "Sergeant Major." I assumed he was an RSM and did not quite understand when he said he was not that high and I thought he had said he was only a Battalion Sergeant Major, but he may have said he was a CSM. I leaned closer and said, "Sergeant Major, I picked you out as THE most squared away Yeoman Warder here. Once again a Marine has to show the Army and Air Force how to properly wear a uniform!" He chuckled and we chatted a bit and then had to excuse himself as it was his appointed time to take a group of tourists through the Tower.

He had to stop to pick up something before he met the group, so I decided to go towards that group of tourists. As he came closer, I announced in a Parade Ground voice, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I have the honor and privilege of introducing Yeoman Warder Sergeant Major Smythe of the Royal Marines. Her Majesty's Jewelry Box and the Tower is completely SECURE as it is guarded by at least one MARINE!" The group cheered and the Sergeant Major winked, while I waved and went on about my business.

Gus

 

[Turtle Creek]

Gus,
FYI, we have Company SGM's in SF and the Company CO is a Major. Each ODA is lead by a MSG and a CPT.

 

[Artificer]

Yes, but British CSM's in the 18th century and right up to day actually did/do the work of First Sergeants and that is the equivalent rank even today - no matter the British CSM's get a Warrant.

Your Company Sergeants Major are real E-9's and equivalent to the British RSM's, are they not? With the very special missions you all have to do and the higher enlisted ranks you generally have in your teams or groups, I can understand why you have Sergeants Major in your companies.

BTW, You all do fine work.

Gus

 

[Turtle Creek]

Gus,
Ya'll 1SG's worked much harder than I did as a Co. SGM.
The average age in my company was 32 and avg rank SFC (E7).
Rarely ever got a late night phone call over normal soldiers being soldiers (Marines being Marines) stuff....maybe 3 times in 2 years.
When I was a TF CSM had lots of Marines assigned from Sgt. up to full Col.
Really enjoyed that experience.
Prob not the right venue but I miss active duty so much I'll wax poetic about it at the drop of a hat.
Worked in Astan with a Marine Col. (old Recon guy from RVN) named Morris...we stay in touch on a email web ring (His) that the Commandant is a member of and that's pretty damned interesting.

 

[Turtle Creek]

BTW Had a Master Guns as my Senior Ops NCO at the JTF...great NCO except he always wanted to beat the manure out of the Air Force NCO's lol.