Horn to base plug fit.

[barebackjack]

My question pertains to odd shaped horns and fitting the base plugs into them.

I have over a hundred horns in the garage right now. Ive been cleaning up a few of the better ones to start working on for powder horns. I have a matched set of gorgeous white horns with black tips that will make great powder horns. Problem is, (and some others have the same problem) is the base is far from being even close to round.

My question is, were original horns boiled than made round at the base end, or were the plugs fitted to these oddly shaped horns?

I have some that are extremely out of round, and some just slightly not round.

Whats the best method? Boil and make them round, or leave as is and make the base to fit?

Thanks guys.

 

[BrownBear]

I haven't made a study by any means, but I recall plenty of both in museums. The rounding is so popular today I find it really boring. Kind of a concession to doing the work fast on a lathe rather than fitting by hand I bet. Me? I make my base plugs to fit the horn the way it grew rather than making it fit my skills on a lathe. But them I'm doing it cuzz I like natural looking horns and I'm definitely not putting any up for sale. Horses for courses, as the English say.

 

[pichou]

Most originals I have seen are rounded, even like the really crude looking ones. A few are not rounded. The main thing is that the round ones have been shaved down so the horn thickness is even at the base.

 

[LRB]

Best way is to boil, and round them. It is not that hard to do. I really think it is easier than trying to fit to an oval.

 

[davy]

My inexperineced opinion is to boil it and round the horn to shape. Install a piece of wood to that dimension, then trim that portion off flush with the horn .. then glue another bigger piece on to the top of it to equal horn outter thickness. :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu can soften the horn by boiling it and rasping down the inside to make the end more round- at least round enough to fit a turned plug. For flat horns, or those you want to plug in their natural state, make a pattern of the end of the horn by pushing the end into a styrofoam plate- like those used to hold plastic-wrapped meat in the grocery store. Then carefully cut out this pattern with a knife, and use it to transer the shape to the wood you choose to make the plug.

Some horners use pine for such a plug, making it out of 1/4-1/2" boards. Its fitted flush with the outside end of the horn. Then, a turned round end is done on a lathe, and glued to the pine plug, so that you get the appearance of a fancy round plug, while the plug's interior is actually the softer, easier to work pine. Glue and pin the plug into the end of the horn so you never have to worry about it coming apart.

A Friend of mine had a horn come open at a rendezvous one day- twice, dumping most of a pound of powder on the ground. He had used some common glue, and not epoxy, and, of course, he had not put any kind of pins in the end to hold the plug.

 

[AeroncaTAL]

You can boil the horn either in water or oil to soften it and round. Of the two water is the safest . Boiling in oil is critical; you leave it in too long (and that can be a matter of seconds) and the horn is scorched. I use a hot air gun. It works real well. You should turn (or carve) a forming plug with about an 80 degree taper. Heat up and soften the butt and fit the horn over the plug. Leave it in while you work on carving the horn, it lets you have something to grab onto. I turn the butt plugs on my lathe. If you don't have a lathe, hand carve them. Have fun! (a hundred horns :shocked2: )
Scott

 

[Robert Egler]

They're supposed to be round!? Hmm. :hmm: I have made several for myself, one just a couple week ago, none of them round, or even close for that matter. I always thought the round looking ones just came that way. It never occured to me to try and make them round. I just carefully fit the plug to the shape that the horn was to start with.

 

[Allan Gray]

I've done the hot oil method, but there is a fine line between softening the horn and burning it so one needs to check it often, watch it like a hawk.

A tapered horn shaping plug helped also. I turned one out of a scrap piece of hardwood. I remember a post some time ago about a gentleman who used a small flower pot for a shaping plug...very clever.

Another word of advise unless you are alone or the people in your household enjoy the smell of burning hair, do it out side if you can. :shocked2:

 

[Harddog]

The rounding is so popular today I find it really boring. Kind of a concession to doing the work fast on a lathe rather than fitting by hand I bet.

Brown Bear,

They had lathes back in the 18th century and they were used to turn butt plugs, spout plugs and even the horns themselves. There are several types of horns that almost require a lathe to make them. Thousands of horns with round butt plugs were made during the 18th and 19th centuries.

Randy Hedden

 

[BrownBear]

I agree and I'm sure that's how they made the round ones. Like I said, I've only seen a limited selection, but it has included primitive horns. All those had plugs carved to fit the horn. Probably depends on whether the original owner had access to a lathe or could find or afford to buy a factory horn, or simply settled down in front of the fireplace and made his own. Lathing is no problem for me, and I'd do it for some of my horns if I had better access to one. But it still feels really cool to sit down and whittle a plug.

 

[dodgecity]

I have a cone shaped piece of hard rubber about 5" long. I imagine a similarly shaped piece of wood would work just as well. The narrow part of the cone is about 1 1/2" in diameter and tapers up to 3" on the wide end. After boiling the horn in water to soften it, I drive the cone firmly into the open base of the horn to round it and let it cool. I then measure the diameter of the cone where it is flush with the end of the horn and cut a wood plug of the same diameter, using a rasp to slightly bevel the plug for easier entry into the horn. This is for a plug that will be flush with the end of the horn. When I remove the cone from the horn, I coat the edges of the wooden plug with clear silicone caulking (the kind that doesn't harden) so that the horn to plug fit will be airtight. After tapping the plug home, I drill the horn and plug all the way around and pin it with wooden dowels. Perform any desired decorative carving, etc., finish sand, and add a hand forged staple and it's done.

 

[Elnathan]

I have made a couple tapered plugs for rounding the butt ends of horns out of 2x4s without a lathe. It is not that hard to do.
Last couple I've done have been close enough to round that I have done the rounding and the ******** in one step - I simply shape the plug round and shove it into the soft horn, rounding it as I go. When dry, cut away anything sticking out. I taper my plugs to follow the angle of the interior wall, incidentally, so the degree of taper is different at different areas of the plug. I think I have had one in the half-dozen I have made that wasn't airtight with only a wood-to-horn fit, and a bit of beeswax cured that easily.

I have got a horn now that is too flat and thick to round easily. I am think that I may leave it oval and try to make something similar to the Chief Pagus Horn, one of the few scrimshawed horns I've seen with a natural base. It is a big horn, so it should go well with an early musket.

 

[2158]

barebackjack, everyone is on the right track, i use the oil method. keep the oil under 325 degrees. one of the most inportant thing to do first is to drill the spout. hot water/ oil trapped inside horn can be dangerous. like one member said most horns where formed round, at least f&i campane/map horns. all to often most lathe turned plugs are not relieved on the inside, this gives the horn a much more balanced feel. many i've seen, the plug weights more than the powder in it. one thing, you can do a oval or oblonged plug almost as fast as a turned one. the horn is your template. than tilt your band saw at 10 degrees and cut to the line. this method is shown in ron ehlert's powder horn video. later, mike

 

[crockett]

All the antique horns I have seen had round plugs but I guess anything is possible.
I have spoken a few times to one of the better authorities in the nation and he claims most men bought their powder horns, they did not make them.
So,if you want to do it right, You sort of have to round the horn.
On buffalo you can boil in water to soften but cow horn is tougher and for me at least, you need the oil.
It's a two step process, first you need a tapered plug to round the horn. You need an assortment of these plugs if you'll be making horns of various sizes. Pine is fine. You need to put these in the horn but not so tightly that the horn shrinks around the plug and can't be pulled off, a too tight fit can also create a bulge or ring at the end of the plug.
Once the horn is round you can turn the plug on a lathe and use calipers to get a precise fit.
Too much work??- then do the best you can, key hole saws can cut round plugs that you can taper to make the horn round and you can file out a base plug to fit a rounded horn- that ought to be very good as long as you don't try to do any fancy turnings on the plug, just flush- that's the way most of the originals look any way.

 

[SAJones]

I like my horns sorta oval, so boil them & flatten somewhat. An oval plug isn't that hard to make from a round one, especially since I ain't got a lathe. I like the idea of a hot air blower, I used a propane torch once & had to remove 2" of burned/scorched horn.

 

[dlpowell]

The smell of cooked cow horn is something you have to experience! :rotf:

 

[bajabuc]

Oh Gawd Don...you ain't kidding...ewww!!

I don't boil...I just get 'em hot with hot water. I make sure I already have my plug turned. I built a bow foot lathe. I dip the end of the horn in the water and press the plug in...redip and press again...if you get it too hot the horn starts to peel after a few years.

Making a flat rectangle curved and tapered horn...like the 18th/early 19th century English Gentlemans Powder Horn is a real trick. I carved a blank insert out of red oak and slipped in in the horn and then water heated the horn and gently massaged the horn til it fit the insert. "Gently"...with a leather mallet as hard as I could hit it after it started to shrink fit. I had to relieve the corners on the inside to get it to "square up." I used a 12 inch ******* file. Made a nice horn...did it twice and used one for shotgun pellets.

 

[omarick1948]

"I just get them hot with hot water", might be OK for a bath every other Saturday night, but EVEN continuous heat will make the forming plug easier to push into almost any cow horn!

My point!...You mention PEELING of the horn. The peeling is caused by too little heat or basic horn layer seperation that is common on selecting a horn that already had minute seperation naturally from the animal. Usually Horners can rasp or scrape the outer flakieness or seperation SCALE away. When you pound or over-force a forming plug into a warmed only horn. Your helping to break the base horn fibers loose and though it may not show for awhile on the exterior. A few months or years later heavy flaking or Peeling can show-up!

Some Feller's on this forum use boiling water only is needed and someone even stated that "they hadn't seen a horn that wouldn't soften or round using only boiling hot water". Granted, those thin imported cow horns will form easily in hot boiling water, but a quality thicker cow horn is almost impossible to truly round of flatten completely using only boiling water method. Water boils at 212 degree's and you need more heat to do it right!

I use a Hot Air Gun most of the time for my horn work, but also do a 5 X 10 hot cooking oil method that works for me everytime! ALWAYS PRE-DRILL THE SPOUT END FIRST FOR SAFETY! You don't want a air bubble inside the horn! Then I heat my oil to 325 degree's and dip 3/4 of my horn (big end first) slowly into the pot of hot oil. Count to 5 seconds only and lift out. Count to 10 and lower horn in the oil again! If you hold the horn in the hot boil to long you will scorch it! After doing this for several minutes and using gloves. I wipe the horn off and try to check it for plyability. If ready flatten or palm push the base form in. If still a little hard...it's back to the pot for a little more heating-up!....Yes, hot oil is a little messy and can be dangerous! This is the time of year to do this outside and I usually form and/or round several horns at a time, as I have several forming plugs.

I know ya didn't ask for help, but thought this might give you a little information from an old guy who has made a powder horn or two!... :thumbsup:

Rick Froehlich

 

[Top Jaw]

Jack

Maybe you have a copy already, but before you start in on those nice horns, I would suggest getting a copy of the Sibley book on making powder horns. (Track and others sell it). It is a great reference with lots of color pic's, and gives some excellent tips. I loaned my copy to a buddy and his first horn turned out great. Much better than my first effort a few years back. This book will help you shave off alot of trial and error that some of the rest of us have gone through.

I also like the hot oil method for rounding the base. One of my early horns I rounded with boiling water and it later wanted to resist its new shape. After it was finished, it developed a little divit above the base plug, which I then had to file out and then refinish the horn. (No scrim on that one luckily.) I have never had a problem with this when using 350 degree oil. Things seem to stay put after rounding.