Hornady GP conical with felt over powder wad?

[ElkStalker]

I have been working up a load for my TC Renegade 50cal for about a year now. I’ve tried just about every available conical, except for No Excuses. I’ve tried FFg and FFFg Goex and Shuetzen from 50-100grains. The best I could get was about 4” at 100yards with 90gr of Goex FFFg using a Lee R.E.A.L bullet. The sad part is, I’m not set up to cast my own and I’m down to 2. These results were also not repeatable as subsequent groups were more in the 12-15” range. TC Maxiballs and Hunters were absolutely terrible. I have not shot a PRB in this rifle as my goal for this rifle is heavy conical for elk hunting. If it were a 54, I’d just run a PRB and be done with it, but I don’t trust a 50cal RB on a bull elk unless I can get really really close. The only thing I haven’t tried is a felt over powder wad. Do those work decent with a hollow base slug? What is your experience with doing so? I read some info from Idaho Lewis and he said to run half a cotton ball as this would fall away from the hollow base. Does this provide an adequate gas seal? I’ve only recently become serious about muzzleloaders. I’ve shot them for a about 15 years as range fun, off and on, but after a successful deer hunt last year with my Lyman GPR, I think I’m hooked. I don’t want to take anything to the woods except for a good old Black Powder smokepole. But I also want to harvest larger game ethically and successfully.
I appreciate any tips from you folks that have more experience than I.
- Photo of my TC Renegade that I put together from a kit last fall. 4 digit kit gun. I browned all the hardware and really like how she turned out.

 

[Shotgunblast]

Could try a card over the powder or even 40 g of corn meal

 

[COTNTOP]

I have had luck with PA Conicals if they are heavy enough.

 

[SwanShot]

I've used both felt wads and cornmeal(not in the same load). Both helped a lot. Try it, it will either work, or it won't.

 

[renegadehunter]

Idaholewis's suggestion of half a cottonball is not for sealing the barrel, the skirt of a hollow base bullet does that. He is talking about protecting the base of the bullet from being melted or deformed. The base of a bullet determines how well it will fly or be "steered". Imagine if one side of the base gets a bit melted, then the air is flowing over it quite a bit differently that it would over a nice concentric base with fairly "sharp" edges.
I have never tried a wad with a hollow base bullet, but I've seen threads that say it worked for people who have tried it. With a hollow base a cottonball or just some cornmeal as a buffer sounds more appealing to me.
Also, make sure you aren't having accuracy problems from the bore being badly leaded up. One of the benefits of a wad is also that it helps minimize leading.

 

[TDM]

I’ve just started using the lubed felt over powder wad with good results. I plan to try using cornmeal too. I’d give them both a try.

 

[ElkStalker]

Idaholewis's suggestion of half a cottonball is not for sealing the barrel, the skirt of a hollow base bullet does that. He is talking about protecting the base of the bullet from being melted or deformed. The base of a bullet determines how well it will fly or be "steered". Imagine if one side of the base gets a bit melted, then the air is flowing over it quite a bit differently that it would over a nice concentric base with fairly "sharp" edges.
I have never tried a wad with a hollow base bullet, but I've seen threads that say it worked for people who have tried it. With a hollow base a cottonball or just some cornmeal as a buffer sounds more appealing to me.
Also, make sure you aren't having accuracy problems from the bore being badly leaded up. One of the benefits of a wad is also that it helps minimize leading.

Thank you for the clarification. That makes a lot more sense to me than it being used as a gas seal. I will have to try both a wad and cornmeal and compare those results. I’ve gone through and made sure there is no lead. I built this rifle from a kit and it was in good shape to begin with, but I’ve yet to find the combo that makes it sing. I will scrub it again with lead removing solvent just to make extra certain (can’t hurt to be really clean). I have some wads on order from TOW. Who knows, maybe the use of a wad will allow good accuracy with the TC maxi-ball as well.

 

[deerstalkert]

i went from a shotgun pattern to 3" 10 shot group using a lubed wad under the Hornady great plains hollow base.
the wads i recovered were just a donut. sold me on the wad. lube was bear fat/ bees wax blend.

 

[ElkStalker]

i went from a shotgun pattern to 3" 10 shot group using a lubed wad under the Hornady great plains hollow base.
the wads i recovered were just a donut. sold me on the wad. lube was bear fat/ bees wax blend.

That’s outstanding! Gives me hope that I’m working in the right direction here. I’m looking forward to trying a few things once supplies arrive. I’m about an hour from the nearest muzzleloader supply store, so with the price of fuel these days, I just ordered online.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have used leather over powder wads for both my hollow based mini's and prb for years with good results.

 

[ElkStalker]

I have used leather over powder wads for both my hollow based mini's and prb for years with good results.

Thank you! I will give that a shot. I have a 5/8” punch and a ton of leather.

 

[SDSmlf]

Experimented with Lee Modern Mini (relativity thick skirt) and oversized felt wads with a 1/16” hole poked in them with some promising success. Got into flat base bullets and paperpatching and have not really looked back since. You may want to look at using slightly oversized felt wads with a small hole in them if using a hollow base conical. With a flat based conical I would think slightly over bore size felt wads would help.

 

[Pilgrim]

Can anyone recommend suppliers for quality felt?

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

Durafelt. Good stuff, good service.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Pilgrim]

Has anyone tried using trappers wool under a lubed PRB? I trap and have a ton of combed wool.

 

[longcruise]

Imagine if one side of the base gets a bit melted, then the air is flowing over it quite a bit differently that it would over a nice concentric base with fairly "sharp" edges.

I've always thought the idea that the bullet base melts to be purely speculative. None of the conicals I've recovered showed any sign of it.

 

[SDSmlf]

Can anyone recommend suppliers for quality felt?

I use the 1/8” thick off-white hard density felt from Duro-Felt for wads.

http://www.durofelt.com/image_26.html
They are also a source for mutton tallow for those that use it in their lube. I use it in a lube published in a 1943 NRA American Rifleman Magazine. Started using it in the 1970s have found no reason to change. 40% Mutton Tallow, 40% Paraffin, 20% Pure Beeswax.

 

[Bad Karma]

I've always thought the idea that the bullet base melts to be purely speculative. None of the conicals I've recovered showed any sign of it.

Same here. But I’ve always had good results from using over powder wads or cards.

 

[Greg_E]

Which REAL are you using? I have the 3xx grain that worked OK in my 1:48 barrel at 50 yards, waiting for the lighter 2xx grain to arrive from Midway. I may do some casting this weekend.

The ones I shot were powder coated, I also smeared grease in the grooves to help with the fouling. 60 grains of 777 powder and I was getting around 3 inch groups at 50. Also note my eyes are not good, and using the junk plastic sights on a Traditions rifle. They give a lot more recoil than round ball, was surprised by the difference.

Also, not sure you should discount the number of large animals taken with round ball. I understand your point about ethical shots and power levels, but a faster lighter round might hit harder. The power goes up to the square of the velocity.

Also note that nothing says you can't get cast "other" bullets and cloth or paper patch them, just need the right size. That goes for copper jacket if you want. For 50 that might be hard, not sure if a thick enough patch could make up enough to use .454 cast ammo.

If you are interested in more of the REAL, send me a message and I'll see what I can get cast.

 

[ElkStalker]

Which REAL are you using? I have the 3xx grain that worked OK in my 1:48 barrel at 50 yards, waiting for the lighter 2xx grain to arrive from Midway. I may do some casting this weekend.

The ones I shot were powder coated, I also smeared grease in the grooves to help with the fouling. 60 grains of 777 powder and I was getting around 3 inch groups at 50. Also note my eyes are not good, and using the junk plastic sights on a Traditions rifle. They give a lot more recoil than round ball, was surprised by the difference.

Also, not sure you should discount the number of large animals taken with round ball. I understand your point about ethical shots and power levels, but a faster lighter round might hit harder. The power goes up to the square of the velocity.

Also note that nothing says you can't get cast "other" bullets and cloth or paper patch them, just need the right size. That goes for copper jacket if you want. For 50 that might be hard, not sure if a thick enough patch could make up enough to use .454 cast ammo.

If you are interested in more of the REAL, send me a message and I'll see what I can get cast.

I was using the 250gr. They were cast by Kootanai Cartridge over here in Couer D’Alene and sold at one of our local sporting goods shops. I picked some up to try and found they shot the best. He passed away last year and I may have bought the last box. The few I have left are not of good quality- misformed, air pockets, dents. I lubed them with TC’s bore butter just prior to being loaded ( what a mess in warm weather). I agree, the good old round ball has taken a lot of game throughout history and I should probably give it more credit. I really like, and trust, a PRB for deer. I’d be more comfortable with a larger caliber round ball for elk, I think. Here in Idaho, we have some of the strictest muzzleloading laws in the country. Paper patched bullets are forbidden. Round balls or slugs must be of pure lead and within .010” of the bore diameter. No sabots. Patched round ball or naked conicals are ok.
Once the wads show up I’ll get to the range and see if it shows improvement with a wad using various conicals. Thank you for your offer, I greatly appreciate it. This may be the venture that finally pushes me to start casting my own.