horror story.......to be continued, I'm sure

[hhughh]

My day has not gone well.

Working on a Chambers NE fowler. Here goes....

First: misdrilled hole from tang into trigger plate--went too far toward the muzzle. That hole ends in the inlet for the trig. guard lug, so I think that can be hidden. Started back through the tang but came clear to the left of the (lockplate side) of the trig. plate. Not good....(That's not even minute of angle)

Finally got a hole that lets me see daylight from the tang through the triggerplate. Redrilled to accept shank on screw, etc. (Did not drill oversize hole in trig. plate--one thing right today)

But, could not get tap to engage hole in trigger plate through stock after several tries. Removed trigger plate. Started tap into hole (oiled it first)

Now, there's a broken tap flush on both sides of the trigger plate. Anyone want to put their name in the hat for who gets to finish building this fowler?

Hugh (Yes, I'm putting my name in as well, but fairly discouraged right now.)

 

[Charles D. Prokopp]

Time to sit down with some Mark Twain and a BIG glass of iced tea. :cursing:
Flush, you say? Try using a cut-off wheel in a Dremel to cut a groove in the hidden side of the tap. Oil copiously and turn it out with a screwdriver. I've done the same thing...

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Just did the same thing on a fancy jeager lock. of course it was too hard to fix with Cprokopp's method. So I heated the lock plate as hot as I could with my little propane torch, and let it sit on the end of the vice while I went to the house for a glass of iced tea. Returned to the shop latter, and drilled the tap out, redrilled the hole and tapped for a 10-32 lock bolt.

You ain't alone in this boat! :wink:

 

[44-henry]

That is a good bit of advice for removing the tap. Broken taps in blind holes are the real nightmare, from what you describe you have a relatively easy fix ahead of you.

As far as future hole drilling, if you are not using a drill press you might want to consider getting one, or finding access to one. You will find numerous threads mentioning the use of a spike bolted to the drill press table that is directly below the spindle center. If you use a setup like this and drill from both sides, you probably won't have any further trouble in this area.

 

[Birddog6]

Last time I broke one off like that I took a very small punch & started taping with the punch against the cutters & backed it out. (Make sure you are Backing it out, not going forward......)

Time before that I did that & the cutters broke & I just put the centerpunch on it & taped it & the entire tap piece crumbled & it fell out.

Now, before the screw the entire project up, go to Lowes & get a Rockwell drill press for your benchtop. If you can afford the kit you can afford the $ 100-150. drillpress so you do not screw the remaining holes up, as you still have more to go & they are just a difficult..

Also get a 4 or 6" drillpress vice & a couple of 6" C clamps to clamp the vice down. Clamp a centerpunch or ground spike in the drillpress vice in a verticle position, point up. Then center it on the table & clamp the vice down. (Some guys grind a bolt, same results) You need about 2/5" between the drill tip & the drillpoint, so bring the bit down to align it, then crank it back up & insure the table is locked so nothing moves.
Now put a small pilot hole in the tang & lockplate & drill 1/2 way, turn it over & drill the other way & now you have a fairly straight hole in the lockplate to tang & now go to the Tap drill bit & get it all the way thru, Now go to the clearance bolt drill & just go TO the triggerplate. Now put the tap in & tape the hole THRU the stock & GO easy. go 1/4 turn in, back it out til you feel the chips break off, go back in til it cuts 1/4 turn, back it out again, keep doing this & you won't break the tap unless they are really cheap taps. (Ones from NAPA will work)

Do the same thing on the Lockplate when ya drill for the lockplate bolts to the sideplate. When you tap thru the stock on the Rear lockbolt, just get it in good so you know it is going the way ya want it. Then take the tap out, take the lock off & put it horozontal in the vice & use tapping oil & finish tapping the rear hole. If you broke a tap on the triggerplate, you surely will on the rear lockbolt hole as it is over twice as thinck. Go Slow, back up Allot.

And if ya don't have the book Gunsmiths of Grenville County, now would be a good time to purchase it & read it before proceeding. :wink:

Now some guys like Mike Brooks & some others pick up a hand drill & somehow the hole goes where it is supposed to. Don't ask me how, cause mine never does. I use a drill point as shown & a small drillpoint for the underlug holes. MSM or Cain's Ourdoors has them for about $40. and a worthy investment, unless you want 5 plugged holes around each barrel pin.... :cursing: or it would be that way for me anyway......

Good luck ! :thumbsup:

PS: A footpedal/switch for the drillpress is a worthwhile accessory also, as it give you both hands free & ya kick the drill on with your foot pedal.

 

[Zonie]

If your using a hand drill and if you know where the hole is supposed to start (like the barrel tang hole) and where you want it to come out (like the location on the trigger plate. You can drill a hole smaller than the tap drill to transfer the mark to the trigger plate mortice.) try marking a line on the side of the stock that would be parallel to where the hole needs to go (connect the start and finish locations with a line). Use this as a guide to determine the angle of the hole.
Sometimes it is easiest to use a smaller drill bit and to drill the upper part of the hole about half way thru the stock. Then, using the line to establish where the lower hole would be, mark its location in the trigger plate mortise and use the smaller drill to drill up thru the stock to intersect the upper hole.
After this intersection is made, use a drill bit that just clears the major diameter of the tap and redrill the thru hole to straighten it up and clean it out.

You were correct in trying to tap the hole in the trigger plate by using the thru hole as a guide, but, as you found, this doesn't always work.
As for broken taps, this happens to everyone. Just remember to use a suitable sulphated oil and if the tap begins to show any resistance back it off to clear the chips, relubricate it and proceed with caution.

By the way, a drill press won't always put the hole where you want it to be without using a centering pin. You can make one by grinding a conical point on one end of a piece of drill rod and pressing it into a block of wood.
To use this, the block must be clamped to the table of the drill press with the point in direct line with the axis of the drill.
Then, using the marked location for the end of the hole position this on the centering pin.
Start drilling from the upper hole location but do not drill thru.
Reverse the stock locating the upper hole on the centering pin and drill up thru the stock from the exit hole location. The drill will meet the first hole almost "right on" every time.

zonie

 

[grey8833]

Ditto to what Birddog6 says. I got a small drill press from Sears. Paid less than 130$ for it new. Bench top, but it works just as described by Birddog6. Really worth it considering the aggrivation of missing the hole. Also, its good for getting your taps in dead straight. I got a tap guide for 6$ on e-bay. Use with the drill press and avoid misalingment and broken taps. And I thought you could buy a "tap out" for snapped taps. A four pronged deal that was used to back a broken tap from the hole.

Mike

 

[Bill Hall]

Zonie, I've used that trick (drilling both directions with a smaller bit) many times and it always worked great.
Here's another trick I use from time to time. Get a length of rod (like a straight piece of coat hanger rod or 1/32 welding rod) and use a bit the same diameter. Start drilling a short ways into the wood, then insert the rod into the hole to indicate the direction of the hole. For example, if you're drilling tang bolts, go in about an inch with the drill, then insert the rod into the hole and draw a line to carry the direction of the rod through the lock area, or wrist, to see where it's going to end up. You can check it in the other direction to see if the hole is canted by sighting over the back of the gun and comparing it to the sideways angle of the rod. The longer the rod, the more the incorrect angle is exaggerated. If the angle of the hole is off, you can ream it over and then drill slightly deeper. Check the new hole both ways until it looks right and drill about half way through. Now do the same from the other end of the hole until they meet up. Then clean it out with the correct size bit.
I have used this method for tang bolts, lock bolts, pins, and wedges. I hope I explained it right. Bill

 

[Fullstock58]

I use the same setup, but mine came from RE davis, it is a wonderful tool for drilling the correct angle with a drill press. I center punch, where the hole needs to be, I start a drill hole, then I drill one hole first in the drilling fixture, then turn the piece over and drill that hole with the fixture, then I drill through the wood, my angles are always correct.

Just a note on taping, once your hole is drilled in the piece normaly it will be at a slight angle, tapping at a slight angle is a pain, heres what I do, remove the piece from the stock that needs tapping, and place it in a vise, now take the same drill bit you drilled the hole with and insert it into the hole, now adjust the piece in the vise untill the drill bit is straight up and down, Now all you have to do is hold the tap straight up and down while starting the tap and tapping, it makes life much easier. When tapping don't spare the oil/tapping fluid and cut a few threads and back out, cut a few more and back out, the biggest mistake is trying to cut to many threads at once, you will get a feel for how much pressure you can use and how many threads you can get at a time.

 

[ss1]

You can get a good drill press, about $40,[on sale] from Harbor Frieght or some other sutch place. I think most press come from China anyway. [ Not PC :wink: ]

 

[MSW]

mike,

i admit it- i never took a shop class in high school. what's a tap guide? how do they work? sounds like something that might come in very handy.

thanks

msw

 

[grey8833]

MSW:
Sure... a tap guide is a 6" long tool that has a shaft, say 3" long, that goes into the chuck on the drill press. The other end is a small spring loaded rod that rides up into the base for about an inch or two - with a nice center cone turned onto the end. You put the piece to be tapped onto the base of the drill press, chuck up the tap guide, retract the spring loaded end with your finger and slip the tap handle and tap under the center guide tip (ever wonder why nearly all tap handles have a little counter sink in the middle of the top of the handle? - now you know!). Make sure the part or hole being tapped is centered under the chuck (my cheapy press has a little laser Sears sold with it - but a long drill works just as well). Once in place the spring loaded tip will give you the proper down pressure and hold the tap dead straight into the hole - also leaves both hands free to turn the tap (carefully -- with real >don't be cheap here!< sulphered tap oil - which any of the big hardware stores will sell. Once you get going - say the full stroke of the tap guide spring - the tap will self center and the rest is easy - just keep backing off every half turn to break the chips. I got mine surplus on e-bay. The net sells them new - not expensive in any case. Worth the investment - assuming you have a drill press.

Mike

 

[John Taylor]

On your broken tap, if it is a carbon steel tap you can heat it to red and let it cool slow and then frill it out like stated earlier but if it is a HSS tap this will not work If you can't get it to back out with a punch then you got a problem. I hear many stories of gunsmith taking a gun to a shop that has an EDM ( electric discharge machine ) and get the tap out that way but that runs into more money. I use a milling machine and a carbide bit to drill them out. The bit is sharpened sort of like a cold chisel and can be run at very high speeds. the tap may get red hot but the carbide will stay hard and go through it. A drill press is not ridged enough to do this and may break the carbide off, then you really go a problem.

 

[flintlockmdj]

I useally start with a #6 bolt and when I finish up if I want I can enlarge to a #8 or #10. If I mess up with the #6 (break a tap, cross thread whatever) I can go to a #8 and if necessary to a #10.

 

[Stophel]

Don't heat the tap. Just break it out. Pound that sucker out with a punch. You might damage the threads in the hole a little, but probably not much, if at all. Pretty easy fix.

Now, if it were a blind hole..

I drill mine by hand with an undersized drill bit, halfway through from both sides meeting in the middle, and evening it up afterwards with the full size drill bit. Pretty easy. I'm the world's worst hole driller, but this one I almost never have problems with.

 

[hhughh]

Thanks for all the tips---and importantly, the encouragement. I have a tang screw through my trigger plate now.

It's not beautiful, and by no means perfect, but the fowler's back on track.

What types of paste do you use to putty these holes back up? Is any kind stainable? Or do I just need to find a really dark color for when I do the AF later??


Hugh

 

[tallbear]

I would try to avoid putty if you can.I've always had good luck with pluging the hole with wood from the stock or similer wood.Make a tapered plug(drill out the hole a little if you have to)put some glue on it and drive it into the hole.When the glue dries file it flush.It will almost dissapear when you stain it.

Mitch

 

[spottedpony]

a trick i read about many years ago, and have used successfully a time or two, when ive broken a tap in a blind hole in a rifle bbl. take a BIG soldering copper and heat to normal soldering temp, add a drop of solder to the tip, as if you were actually going to solder something, and touch the tip of the copper to the broken tap. when it cools enough the solder is starting to "freeze" you will have anealed the tap enough to drill it out.
this also works to spot aneal drilling locations on hard steel such as modern rifle bbls to drill and tap without as much danger of breaking bits or taps.