I'm seriously considering getting my first flint lock.It will be a kit from Track of the Wolf , since I really enjoy working on things like this. I've been reading as much as I can about this type of weapon but can find little on what I can expect in the accuracy department. Mostly people will just say "mine's accurate" or "flintlock's aren't as accurate as percussion". When someone shows a picture or gives a group size, it's usualy only at 25 yards, which doesn't really tell you much. How accurate can I expect a flint lock to be? I really want a traditional rifle, i.e. 18th or early 19th century style. Would a half-stock be more accurate? Can I expect a full-stock traditional rifle to give good accuracy? What would be a good choice if accuracy was the main consideration?
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How accurate can I expect my flint lock to be?
- Thread starter Dithsoer
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My best shot with a flintlock was shooting a kitchen match. I missed cutting a playing in half, sideways, others didn't. If you have a good fast lock,set triggers,good barrel and the right load for it and shootee, no problem. I have made some real good shots and some bad. Dilly
Dithsoer Says
I am guessing that if you mean accuracy from a historical perspective, then I would choose a full stock rifle. While I like the look of a Tennessee Mountain rifle, that style didn't become common until after the first quarter of the 19th century. Half stocks are also a rare confuguration. It will be of more concern to determine the barrel configuration. I would suggest a swamped barrel. The swamped barrel is more common to the early guns and is easier to handle. Easier to handle often means better target accuracy.
If you mean accuracy from a target perspective, then either style will provide good accuracy.
So, IMHO get a full stock, swamped barred with brass hardware. Get the best lock you can afford and get it tuned.
I am guessing that if you mean accuracy from a historical perspective, then I would choose a full stock rifle. While I like the look of a Tennessee Mountain rifle, that style didn't become common until after the first quarter of the 19th century. Half stocks are also a rare confuguration. It will be of more concern to determine the barrel configuration. I would suggest a swamped barrel. The swamped barrel is more common to the early guns and is easier to handle. Easier to handle often means better target accuracy.
If you mean accuracy from a target perspective, then either style will provide good accuracy.
So, IMHO get a full stock, swamped barred with brass hardware. Get the best lock you can afford and get it tuned.
Rocky Johnson
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Dithsoer
That is a hard question. On this forum shooter report 2inch groups at 100 yrs. With my eyes I can hit a paper plate at 100 yards off a rest. Off hand I can hit within three inches at 30 yards. I don't targett shoot as much as I should.
That is a hard question. On this forum shooter report 2inch groups at 100 yrs. With my eyes I can hit a paper plate at 100 yards off a rest. Off hand I can hit within three inches at 30 yards. I don't targett shoot as much as I should.
Big John
45 Cal.
If you hold longer for follow through, which is a must with flintlocks they will be every bit as accurate as percussion rifles. With both you need to work up the right load combo for your rifle. With lots of practice time under your belt, 1.5in at 50yds offhand is not unreasonable,
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nchawkeye
58 Cal.
I can usually keep all my shots into a 1 1/2 inch group with my flinters at 50 yards...If they are farther than a 2 inch group, I know I did something wrong...
When I used to shoot in local matches, you needed at least 2 shots in the 10 ring (one inch circle) and one in the 9 ring to win...
When I used to shoot in local matches, you needed at least 2 shots in the 10 ring (one inch circle) and one in the 9 ring to win...
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There is no difference in accuracy between percussion and flint. I just got into flinters and built my first one. I'm shooting 1" groups at 50 yards with a RB, .54, 38" swamped Green Mt. barrel, 1 in 70 twist. Ignition is instantaneous with large Siler lock. The trigger pull is light which really helps accuracy for me. Its not the accuracy of the guns that is different, its all on the shooter getting used to flinter shooting and practicing!
arkrivco
arkrivco
kevthebassman
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My flinter is a TC Renegade with a Green Mountain slow twist .54 barrel. At 100 yards I can hold my shots inside a 4 inch bullseye. That's as good as I can do with open sights.
Not even a question to worry about...ignition speed is everything...getting the ball out of the bore ASAP is the goal as that leaves less time for muzzle wander. And shooting from a bench rest they'll routinely give a ragged hole to cloverleafs at 50 yds, and a couple inches at 100yds is not unusual at all.
Given you have virtually instantaneous ignition, accuracy is really not a "flintlock" issue...it's really all the other shooter oriented aspects that go into accurate results, ie: eyesight, size of the front sight, consistent precise aim point, breath control, trigger control, bore condition, loading techniques, components used, shot to shot consistency, etc, etc...if you get proper accuracy with a caplock, you'll have proper acuracy with a Flintlock.
Given you have virtually instantaneous ignition, accuracy is really not a "flintlock" issue...it's really all the other shooter oriented aspects that go into accurate results, ie: eyesight, size of the front sight, consistent precise aim point, breath control, trigger control, bore condition, loading techniques, components used, shot to shot consistency, etc, etc...if you get proper accuracy with a caplock, you'll have proper acuracy with a Flintlock.
MikeChapin
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You should be able to shoot a flinter as well as you can a percussion. With a percussion you can sometimes get a little sloppy with follow through and other basic shooting skills and still shoot all right. Flinters will not let you get away with it.
Others have mentioned that ignition speed is a big component. All my flint rifles, perceptivly, will go off as fast as any of my percussions. With a well worked up load and a good barrel a flinter will shoot with percussion rifles all day long.
A good example is a shoot I attended the first of this month. It was an elimation match at long range gongs off hand. If you miss twice you are out. There were two 6"X12" gongs at 100 and one the same size at about 150 yards. There were only five of us who made it to the second gong. Everyone missed except for two of us - both of us shooting flinters. I was shooting a full stock Tennessee .50 and the other fellow was shooting a half stock Hawken flinter.
Off a bench all my flinters will tear a large hole five shot group at 50 yards. At 100 yards they will keep them within three inches. That has less to do with the rifle than with what my old eyes can discern through open iron sights at 100 yards.
As far as full stock or half stock goes, it is a matter of personal taste. I have not seen any difference of one shooting better than the other. I prefer full stocks but that is just a matter of personal taste.
Others have mentioned that ignition speed is a big component. All my flint rifles, perceptivly, will go off as fast as any of my percussions. With a well worked up load and a good barrel a flinter will shoot with percussion rifles all day long.
A good example is a shoot I attended the first of this month. It was an elimation match at long range gongs off hand. If you miss twice you are out. There were two 6"X12" gongs at 100 and one the same size at about 150 yards. There were only five of us who made it to the second gong. Everyone missed except for two of us - both of us shooting flinters. I was shooting a full stock Tennessee .50 and the other fellow was shooting a half stock Hawken flinter.
Off a bench all my flinters will tear a large hole five shot group at 50 yards. At 100 yards they will keep them within three inches. That has less to do with the rifle than with what my old eyes can discern through open iron sights at 100 yards.
As far as full stock or half stock goes, it is a matter of personal taste. I have not seen any difference of one shooting better than the other. I prefer full stocks but that is just a matter of personal taste.
paulvallandigham
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Accuracy is the province of your barrel. Use a good barrel, and the accuracy will be the same with a flintlock, as with a percussion action. Practical accuracy depends on all the things mentioned by other members above. Lock speed is critical, but that requires not only a tuned lock, but proper loading procedures done every time by you, the shooter. You ability to shoot open sights will determine how small a group you can get at longer ranges. You own eyesight will, in turn, determine much of your ability to shoot open sights. There are tricks to do with open sights to make them work better for us, and there is plenty of information on all that here on the forum. Some shooters eventually replace their open sights with peep sights, and as age brings on cataracts, and other degenerative eye disease, some will put scopes on their guns just to get a few more years enjoying shooting their guns.
Long range shooting with Flintlocks is usually reserved for target shooting. If you check the national record scores from Flintlocks and Percussion guns from information available from the NMLRA, you will find that flintlocks do just as well as the percussion guns do.
Most practical shooting, either at targets, or game, is done at 50 yards and under. Far more whitetail deer are killed at distances less than 50 yards than beyond. Some experts indicate that a flintlock will actually ignite the powder faster than a percussion gun does, in a well tuned lock, and I have personally had experienced percussion rifle shooters at my club ask me if I had switched guns and was shooting a percussion rifle, because they heard my gun go off so fast. When I show them that I am shooting the same flintlock rifle I have always shot, they then ask me to show them how its done. I have converted many percussion shooters to the Bright Side of Rock Locks, doing this in their presence, so they can see how its done. It depends on your definition of " ignition" as to whether the experts are correct or not. Bob Trauwig states that a well tuned flintlock will have the main charge igniting before the hammer finishes its fall. IMHO, it then depends on how the powder charge and PRB are loaded in the barrel, as to whether the gun actually fires before the cock comes to a rest, or not. One way or another, flint ignition can be as quick if not quicker as any percussion action delivers. Learning how is what makes shooting flintlocks fun and exciting. Knowing how gives the shooter a lot of satisfaction when he hears to gunshop " experts" telling people that flintlocks are " slower " and less "accurate " than percussion guns. We just smile, wait for the customer to get away from the expert, and then offer them better advice, and the opportunity to learn.
Long range shooting with Flintlocks is usually reserved for target shooting. If you check the national record scores from Flintlocks and Percussion guns from information available from the NMLRA, you will find that flintlocks do just as well as the percussion guns do.
Most practical shooting, either at targets, or game, is done at 50 yards and under. Far more whitetail deer are killed at distances less than 50 yards than beyond. Some experts indicate that a flintlock will actually ignite the powder faster than a percussion gun does, in a well tuned lock, and I have personally had experienced percussion rifle shooters at my club ask me if I had switched guns and was shooting a percussion rifle, because they heard my gun go off so fast. When I show them that I am shooting the same flintlock rifle I have always shot, they then ask me to show them how its done. I have converted many percussion shooters to the Bright Side of Rock Locks, doing this in their presence, so they can see how its done. It depends on your definition of " ignition" as to whether the experts are correct or not. Bob Trauwig states that a well tuned flintlock will have the main charge igniting before the hammer finishes its fall. IMHO, it then depends on how the powder charge and PRB are loaded in the barrel, as to whether the gun actually fires before the cock comes to a rest, or not. One way or another, flint ignition can be as quick if not quicker as any percussion action delivers. Learning how is what makes shooting flintlocks fun and exciting. Knowing how gives the shooter a lot of satisfaction when he hears to gunshop " experts" telling people that flintlocks are " slower " and less "accurate " than percussion guns. We just smile, wait for the customer to get away from the expert, and then offer them better advice, and the opportunity to learn.
Yeah, one good point of flint lock shooting that seems to be universally agreed upon is that shooting them will make you a better shot with your other guns because of the steady hold and longer follow through required. The kit that I am getting comes with a Colerain barrel with a 1 in 56" twist, yet I've read in several places on this site that for best accuracy with a prb a slower twist such as 1 in 70" is better. Should I ask for a barrel with a slower twist? I would want optimum twist for shooting round ball as I have no interest in using conicals or sabots in it.
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I am unfortunately dealing with eyes that aren't what they used to be. I had a chance to get out to the range this morning and concentrate at 75 yards with my .58. This is the first 5 shots at that range, I guess I pulled the second shot but all felt good and went off without a hitch. In the hands of someone else this rifles accuracy would shine I'm sure but for now I am extremely happy with what I can do with it.
Some 50 yard targets.
http://nimrodsplace.com/nerifle21.html
Some 50 yard targets.
http://nimrodsplace.com/nerifle21.html
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worker11811
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Consider the Ruger 10-22 (.22 cal.) rifle I target shoot with as a baseline for comparison against the .54 cal. T/C Renegade flintlock I shoot:
The 10-22 will shoot dime-sized groups at 50 yards if you sandbag it on a stable bench.
The Renegade will shoot silver dollar-sized groups at the same distance from the same bench and sandbag.
Offhand, I can use the 10-22 to regularly pick off golf balls from 50 yards.
Using the Renegade I can regularly hit a 3 inch target.
(By "regular" I mean 3 or 4 hits out of 5 shots. :wink: )
Don't forget that the bullet from a flintlock is a whole lot bigger than a .22. With that in mind, hitting a silver dollar-sized target from 50 yds. out ain't nothin' to sneeze at!
I consider myself an "average" shooter. I know there are guys who can shoot three bullets through the same hole using a flintlock. Maybe, some day, I will be that good... Maybe not!
One of the reasons I like shooting the flintlock is because it teaches you to be a better shot. I figure, if I can learn to shoot good offhand groups with the Renegade, the Ruger will be a piece of cake! :wink:
Being able to go out next muzzleloader season and shoot my own dinner is reason number two!
The 10-22 will shoot dime-sized groups at 50 yards if you sandbag it on a stable bench.
The Renegade will shoot silver dollar-sized groups at the same distance from the same bench and sandbag.
Offhand, I can use the 10-22 to regularly pick off golf balls from 50 yards.
Using the Renegade I can regularly hit a 3 inch target.
(By "regular" I mean 3 or 4 hits out of 5 shots. :wink: )
Don't forget that the bullet from a flintlock is a whole lot bigger than a .22. With that in mind, hitting a silver dollar-sized target from 50 yds. out ain't nothin' to sneeze at!
I consider myself an "average" shooter. I know there are guys who can shoot three bullets through the same hole using a flintlock. Maybe, some day, I will be that good... Maybe not!
One of the reasons I like shooting the flintlock is because it teaches you to be a better shot. I figure, if I can learn to shoot good offhand groups with the Renegade, the Ruger will be a piece of cake! :wink:
Being able to go out next muzzleloader season and shoot my own dinner is reason number two!
paulvallandigham
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What caliber? What length of barrel? If you are shooting a .45 or .50 caliber, I don't see anything wrong with a 1:54 ROT rifled barrel.
The slower twist is a bit more foregiving of variations in powder charges. That is all. That means if you are off in how you measure a powder charge by a couple of grains, more or less, you are still likely to put the ball in the same POI with the slower ROT.
But, consider: a 1:54 Rot, fired from the muzzle at 1500 fps. is spinning the ball 27.77 times a second. That is 1666.66 Times a minute or RPM. By comparison, a ball shot at 1500 fps at the muzzle in a 1:70 ROT barrel is turning 21.43 times a minute, or 1285.7 RPM.
You can't " Overspin " a PRB. Even in those modern " Zip Guns" we don't talk about here on this forum, with their fast ROTs, you can shoot the PRB quite accurately. My brother just built a .45 using a 1:22 ROT barrel originally designed for the .45-70 cartridge. It put RBs into one ragged hole at 100 yards, using a scope to eliminate human error. The gun is for a friend in his 70s, who wanted a light weight gun that could shoot conicals well so he can still deer hunt. The gun shoots conicals beautifully. The conicals and powder charges are comparatively light, because he doesn't intend to try to shoot any deer beyond 50 yards. That helps with recoil issues on a bum shoulder.
The slower twist is a bit more foregiving of variations in powder charges. That is all. That means if you are off in how you measure a powder charge by a couple of grains, more or less, you are still likely to put the ball in the same POI with the slower ROT.
But, consider: a 1:54 Rot, fired from the muzzle at 1500 fps. is spinning the ball 27.77 times a second. That is 1666.66 Times a minute or RPM. By comparison, a ball shot at 1500 fps at the muzzle in a 1:70 ROT barrel is turning 21.43 times a minute, or 1285.7 RPM.
You can't " Overspin " a PRB. Even in those modern " Zip Guns" we don't talk about here on this forum, with their fast ROTs, you can shoot the PRB quite accurately. My brother just built a .45 using a 1:22 ROT barrel originally designed for the .45-70 cartridge. It put RBs into one ragged hole at 100 yards, using a scope to eliminate human error. The gun is for a friend in his 70s, who wanted a light weight gun that could shoot conicals well so he can still deer hunt. The gun shoots conicals beautifully. The conicals and powder charges are comparatively light, because he doesn't intend to try to shoot any deer beyond 50 yards. That helps with recoil issues on a bum shoulder.
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The rifle shoots better than I can.
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The rifle shoots better than I can.
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Russ T Frizzen
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My .62 caliber long rifle will put them into a 4" group at 100 yards all day long. It used to do better, but at 62 years old my eyes aren't what they used to be. The more you shoot a flintlock the more accurate you will become with it--just like any other rifle.
paulvallandigham
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A 2-inch group from a .54 is very respectable at 50 yards. The gun will shoot tighter if you clean it between each round, and increase that powder charge a bit.
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