How accurate is your smallbore???

[MikeChapin]

Mike: Do you think those "flyers" just might be related to the fact that you don't clean between shots????? :hmm: :bow: :thumbsup:

I only get the flyers when I drop below 30 grains. At 30 grains I get no flyers unless I start getting sloppy. Barrel state is the same from shot to shot with a proper patch and ball combination. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

OK. But don't you think there might just be a correlation between using such light powder charges, and those flyers in a dirty barrel? You may be able to seat the PRB down the barrel with the right patch, ball, and lube, but that doesn't prevent a build up of crud at the back of the barrel, does it?

I was at the Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Shoot, Saturday, watching my brother and others shoot to learn more about it. The winner fired a 10 shot string that was about 4 1/2 inches! The man who won 10th place at the match was another friend, and he won the World Shoot last year with a worse score than he fired Saturday.

The one thing I noticed in common with all the shooters was how they cleaned their bores between shots. The percussion shooters also fired a couple of caps off to clear their flash channels before loading the next powder charge, and most followed that firing of caps with another patch down the barrel to remove the cap residue. Each shot fired was made from a barrel as consistently clean as the first shot fired. The gusty winds caused enough problems for shooters, with "flyers."

I don't expect everyone who shoots BP guns to want or NEED the kind of accuracy I saw Saturday. But, if you want to know why a ball goes sailing off away from your point of aim- a flyer--- any time, you should understand all the elements of loading AND CLEANING that go into shooting tight groups.

Nothing is for free. You pay a price when you cut corners, with most things you do.

The Chunk Gun matches are shot at 60 yards for a reason: Everyone can shoot a one hole group at 25 yards. Many can do it even at 50 yards. But at 60 yards, velocities begin to drop enough, that the least imperfection in your load or cleaning technique will begin to show up in your groups.

I am not interested in beginning to shoot Chunk guns at my age. Its too much work. But, I went to watch, and learn how the serious shooters get those tight little groups. I learned quite a bit, even now after being in this sport actively since 1978.

My brother was shooting the match for the 5th time. He took 3 inches off his string from last year, but blew his last two shots. If those 2 shots had been as close as the first 8, he would have placed in the top 40 shooters, and taken more than 5 inches off his last year's string.

He will be practicing all this year, and will be better next year. He solved a whole list of problems for this match, and discovered he needs to work on a few more to be truly competitive.

One of the problems he solved was flyers caused by inconsistent cleaning, that went along with a couple of misfires because of clogged flash channels.

I was not criticizing you, Mike. Instead I was trying to use your post as a way to get members to discuss WHY you get flyers, and how to stop them, even when doing "informal " shooting. A flyer at the range is one thing: A flyer when hunting large game, like Whitetail deer, can result in a gutshot deer, or a broken leg, that will suffer a long time before it dies. :hmm:

 

[MikeChapin]

OK. But don't you think there might just be a correlation between using such light powder charges, and those flyers in a dirty barrel? You may be able to seat the PRB down the barrel with the right patch, ball, and lube, but that doesn't prevent a build up of crud at the back of the barrel, does it?

...

No I don't. The balls are loaded the same and the conditions are the same. The only variation is the powder charge. The lighter charge gives flyers and the heavier doesn't.

I will conceed that breech crud buildup will give some variation by placing the ball in a slightly different place from shot to shot. If I were a bench or chunk shooter I would worry about that and clean between shots. Since 95% of my competitive shooting is offhand, I don't worry about it much. At my age any variation in ball position is lost in my wobble.

A snug, not tight, patch/ball combination with a wet patch will leave the barrel in the same state from shot to shot. I won the John Colter shoot here in Wyoming in February. The person who came in second is on the USA Muzzleloading team and did clean after every shot. Two years before at the same shoot I did the same thing to him. I win enough competitions to tell me I must be doing something right.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay: You need a chronograph to see why I made my point.

When you reduce powder charges, any friction in the barrel( caused by poor boring, poor finishing, rust, and crud, etc.) will change the barrel vibrations( harmonics) of the barrel, and throw balls to a different POI. When you increase the powder charge, generally, two things happen that help group sizes:

1. The soft lead ball expands more with the higher powder charge, and provides a better Seal, than you get using the lighter powder charges;

2. The power behind the heavy charge pushes the PRB OVER the crud or rough spots in the bore, maintaining more consistent velocity and a lower SDV than you get with the lighter powder charge loads. Its the difference you feel driving at 5 mph over a pot hole with your car, vs. what you feel going over that same pothole at 65 mph.

If you CLEAN the barrel between shots, so that there is NO crud in the barrel for the PRB to overcome, you get similar harmonics, better groups sizes, and lower SDV, too.

 

[MikeChapin]

Paul, I will concede all your points. :bow:

Cleaning after every shot seems an awful lot like work to me. I guess I have a little more cavalier attitude about competition than other people do. I do it for fun and the fellowship at the shoots. I like to get a gun shooting the best it can under my criteria. The only flyers I get with the optimal loads are operator error rather than the rifle. I practice enough to be competitive but could use more. I'm getting up to an age where I don't win as much as I used to. Younger eyes and reflexes trump me more and more every year. If I never placed in another shoot I would still do it because it is just fun.

If I was more serious about the shooting I would probably go with teflon patching which requires cleaning between shots and worry about lubes other than spit. I would probably go for more bench shooting to offset the loss of muscle tone. For other people these concerns are how they enjoy the sport but for me it seems to be more bother than it's worth. Other people may see it different and more power to them.

 

[Roy]

I didn't clean between shots at my target at 100yds... :v

 

[hanshi]

Since you mentioned it, Paul, I have a rifle that shoots very well but has a noticeable rough spot in the bore. At 50 - 60 yards it does well just loading and shooting for 30 rounds or so. Then at around that point it gets harder to load and a flier shows up here and there-can't be me cause I don't do fliers :haha:. Usually a pass from a brass brush is all that's needed. It's the only gun I have that does this and the rough spot is visible with a bore light. Only that one spot gets fouling buildup. I just don't shoot well enough to see any difference otherwise.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The only reason most shooters begin to clean between shots is that, like me, they don't mind losing a match or contest because of their own errors in stance, breath control, aiming errors, trigger squeeze, follow through,etc. Instead, what drives them to frustration is when they know they did all those things right, and they still missed the target! Flyers do that!

I also don't like using hunting loads at short range targets. I always find that light load that shoots accurately out to 50 yds. Why burn up more powder than is necessary to get the ball to pierce the paper??? But, I learned long ago that light loads require a cleaner barrel to be accurate.

We don't fire "timed matches" at my club. The club is more concerned with having a SAFE shoot than a fast shoot. We take our time cleaning, talk to each other, kid each other, and enjoy the company as well as the shooting. We give each other the courtesy to not talk to the shooter when he is at the line and ready to shoot, and we are highly competitive between ourselves. We help each other figure out if something is wrong, examine spent patches, loose screws, tight screws, lock parts that need oiling, etc.

Its much more fun to shoot against GOOD Shooters, who challenge you to do your very best, than to shoot against people who can't hit the backstop!

And, if everything works right, winning that match is even sweeter a victory because you had to shoot your best to win it.

Like you, I don't win a lot of matches these day. My eyes don't see as well, and my back has its own ideas on how long I can hold up my rifle and stand before I am done! I just look at it as another part of the challenge I have to overcome.

What I do enjoy is giving the better shooters a run for their money, and making them shoot their best instead of just goofing off, and still beating the new shooters who still don't know what they are doing. :thumbsup:

 

[smo]

My eyes don't see as well, and my back has its own ideas on how long I can hold up my rifle and stand before I am done!

That is why i like shooting from the bench. My only competition at my club is me. :shake: And i plan to out shoot my best score again this month :thumbsup: I going for all 10's and all X's the perfect round :shocked2: :wink:

 

[MikeChapin]

The only reason most shooters begin to clean between shots is that, like me, they don't mind losing a match or contest because of their own errors in stance, breath control, aiming errors, trigger squeeze, follow through,etc. Instead, what drives them to frustration is when they know they did all those things right, and they still missed the target! Flyers do that!

It drives me nuts also. I have a Tennessee I built 25 years or so ago that started doing that. It always loaded easier than I liked but it always shot well. It was the rifle I broke 40 with on the 50 yard six bull with back in the day. Lately I have been getting a flyer every six or seven shots. I decided to try a larger ball and see if it would help. Boy did it! The rifle went from being a good shooter to a tack driver again.

I also don't like using hunting loads at short range targets. I always find that light load that shoots accurately out to 50 yds. Why burn up more powder than is necessary to get the ball to pierce the paper??? But, I learned long ago that light loads require a cleaner barrel to be accurate.

Same here. Shooting full stoked loads all day is hard on the body. In my Santa Fe .53 I use 50 grains for 25 and 50 yards. For 100 yards I use 75. For those events over 100 yards, like silhouettes and long range, I use 80 grains and raise the front sight in the notch. I do the same with my other rifles.

We don't fire "timed matches" at my club. The club is more concerned with having a SAFE shoot than a fast shoot. We take our time cleaning, talk to each other, kid each other, and enjoy the company as well as the shooting. We give each other the courtesy to not talk to the shooter when he is at the line and ready to shoot, and we are highly competitive between ourselves. We help each other figure out if something is wrong, examine spent patches, loose screws, tight screws, lock parts that need oiling, etc.

Our club does much the same thing. There is a nominal time for relays of 20 minutes but if someone is having trouble or a little slow nobody cares. We just talk or harass the slow guy if he dry balled and is a veteran shooter. He also gets more help than he needs to clear the rifle. None of use got into this for rapid fire.

Its much more fun to shoot against GOOD Shooters, who challenge you to do your very best, than to shoot against people who can't hit the backstop!

And, if everything works right, winning that match is even sweeter a victory because you had to shoot your best to win it.

Yes it is. There is not much satisfaction beating someone who can barely keep it on the paper. I have been to some local shoots where I pulled out of some events to give the local shooters a chance. Not a lot of satisfaction there. I enjoy our local shoots because there are some very good shooters in the club. State events are the same way. They always attract the best shooters from Colorado, Wyoming and Montana.

Like you, I don't win a lot of matches these day. My eyes don't see as well, and my back has its own ideas on how long I can hold up my rifle and stand before I am done! I just look at it as another part of the challenge I have to overcome.

What I do enjoy is giving the better shooters a run for their money, and making them shoot their best instead of just goofing off, and still beating the new shooters who still don't know what they are doing. :thumbsup:

I'll still get an aggregate once in a while when I am having a good day. I do place in a lot of the matches I am in but not like I used to. I too like to keep the great shooters honest. If I am having a good day and they are having a mediocre one, I can beat them so they have to stay on top of their game if they want to win.

I really don't mind getting beat if I shot my best and I got taken by a few points. It just makes it more fun.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I learned a life lesson from my best friend one day, along with a lot of other trap shooters.

We were at an Annual Turkey Shoot at the Sadorus Sportsman's Club, in SW Champaign County, when, later in the day, some young guys showed up with their field guns- a collection of questionable shotguns. One look told us they were basically rifle shooters, and had no real training on how to shoot a shotgun at clay targets.

An older guy, who was a 27-yard handicap shooter, hurried into the club house to sign up to shoot against these kids. My friend, Bruce, went in and told the score keeper to sign him up on any squad where this older shooter was signing up to shoot against the kids.

The young guns shot maybe 3-7 out of 10 targets to finish a distant out-of-the-money. Bruce either outshot the other guy, or tied him, only to beat him in the shoot-off back at some 30 yards behind the trap house. When he won the match, he would find the best shooter of the three younger shooters on the squad, and give him the winning ticket so the guy could take home a turkey.

Bruce made sure that the older guy never won a turkey shooting against those young guns. When the three young guns figured out what Bruce was doing, they tried harder, to be the best between themselves, and win a turkey via Bruce.

I was watching this from behind with a group of other experienced shooters, and all of them commented on how much they enjoyed seeing this old shooter taught a lesson. They waited until the old shooter left before going up to Bruce and congratulating him on his sportsmanship, and thanking him for being so generous to the young guns. It was his way of helping out young guys, so they didn't get discouraged, and leave our sport, but had a chance to shoot against shooters of their own level of skill.

Years later, my BP club set up a Trap, and we began holding 10-bird matches as part of the club program. We had half a dozen members who owned shotguns, but none of them was experienced as I was. On a bad day, I would break 8 out of the 10 targets, but the next closest score would be 2! I stopped shooting against the other members, and instead volunteered to keep score, and pull the trap for the others. I intentionally would leave my shotgun home.

One day, one of the guys bet me I could not break two targets thrown at once( doubles). Another member handed me his loaded DB shotgun, and I watched as they adjusted the trap to throw doubles. Then I called pull, and broke both targets. The winning score for the club trap match had only been 2 out of ten that day, and someone grumbled that I would have tied that score with that double I broke.

I told the guys I had been shooting Trap for years, and it simply was not fair to them to have me shooting against them. I would much rather coach them to get them to break more targets, so that eventually they could compete with me, than to beat them soundly at every shoot now. I even took my modern shotgun and several boxes of shells to the club one day to allow the guys to use it to learn to lead targets Scores doubled after that first "training session", but that only meant that someone might break 4 targets out of 10! They needed to do a lot more work.

A couple of years ago, I finally shot a trap match at the club on a day with very gusty winds, blowing right into my face. I only broke 6 targets, but still came in 4th place. I was horrified! I did laugh a lot, as we shot, as the gusts were so strong that clays were blown straight up , and often landed either at our feet, or behind us! We were standing 10 yards behind the trap! :blah: :hatsoff: I learned that some of the shooters had HIT NO Targets in that match, so maybe that 6 was not so bad a score afterall. I have yet to shoot another trap shoot where bystanders were yelling, " In-coming" to warn the shooters to duck! :shocked2: :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[410-er]

Not paper proof but you get the idea.Free handed I can pretty much count on 50% kill under 40yds.Can shoot the .32 all day with 20grs of FFFg and not have to clean till I get home.