How can I tell without a borescope if I have a ringed barrel??

[Grenadier1758]

Most of the input I have heard from folks that un-wrung a barrel did so by shortening the barrel past the ring.

 

[Adui]

With out trying to sound offensive or condescending, is there any evidence that a ringed barrel degrades accuracy?
I have read an account of a meticulous target shooter noticing accuracy of his rifle increased after an accident that caused a ring.
I ringed a 22 once and while I have no proof distinctly noticed an improvement and not a degrading of accuracy!

Now I expect some barrels maybe affected negatively but is this another one of those mythical lores? Do all ringed barrels result in a degrading accuracy? I don't think so!

B.

I cant speak for muzzle loaders, or even most guns. however My mom has an OLD (no serial old) .22 rifle that is literally a tack driver. It has a ring about half way give or take up the tube. That rifle has been used for some pretty amazing shots, and some pretty amusing moments between mom and dad LOL!! (Dad was an expert marksman in the navy yet Mom could out shoot him without trying)

 

[Britsmoothy]

Perhaps in the modern guns you mention, ringing might not cause a problem but I think rifled muzzleloading guns shooting patched roundballs is different.

The one gun I bought that had a ringed barrel was a old CVA Mountain rifle. I didn't know when I bought it that it had this problem and had heard that these guns shoot very accuretly.
My first trip to the range proved differently.

Regardless of the ball and patch I tried, the group size at 50 yards was all over the 12" X 12" target and this was shooting off the bench with my left elbow firmly planted on it.

After finding some of the shot patches I found that they all were badly burned and torn at the place where the ball had contacted the bore.
When I got home and started to clean the gun, it became obvious the barrel was ringed.

IMO, the patch was probably doing fine as it and the ball moved up the barrel but when they got to the ringed area and the "fit" suddenly became looser the hot gasses blew past the patch and burned it badly. From that point on, the patch not only didn't seal the bore but the patch lost its grip on the rifling resulting in the poor accuracy.

With the deepest respect Zonie. Your example is an isolated case and with assumptions. I understand your assumptions and they sound plausible but!
Did you manage to achieve an variation via experimentation and elimination....like adding wads or firewalls?
Was the barrel too new. Was it lapped to eliminate this possibility?

B.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I wonder if anyone ever tried to un-ring a barrel with a hydraulic press or a good strong vise with shims on the high spots?

Well in a "bulged" barrel, where the inner change of the barrel is equal to the exterior change, which sometimes is seen in smoothbore barrels, this might work. It does work when a shotgun barrel has been damaged by an exterior impact (perhaps from being dropped) that has caused an inward denting of the barrel.

However in a "ringed" barrel, normally the exterior change is slight and not equal to the interior bulge, which is an actuall compression of the steel, and sometimes there is no exterior change. It's more akin to a "stamp". Stamping the exterior of a barrel pushes steel inward, but does not cause a change in the interior of the barrel. The ring is sort of an internal "stamping" of the barrel.



One "cure" as mentioned is to shorten the barrel.
Another is to ream out the barrel in a larger diameter than the ring.

LD

 

[GREENSWLDE]

As with Britsmoothy I also have a ringed barrel that is very accurate even out to 1000 in the past.The ring is 2.5" from the muzzle and "may?" act as a choke which was used on many Match rifles.My 9.6m/m late Swiss styled Belgian M/L is choked .002" for the last 2" to the muzzle and will drive tacks at 50mtrs. I have also suffered lots of times with ring fowling on Flint shot guns in warmer climates just in front of the shot charge.Humid air this side of the pond helps remove this problem..
Is Sidney Smith from the forum the gentleman I know as Si. Smith from the International scene back in the 80's & 90's M.S.

 

[Zonie]

To ALL:

Forum rules say we can't talk about shooting modern guns so I'm asking our members to refrain from discussing them in this topic.

 

[Adui]

To ALL:

Forum rules say we can't talk about shooting modern guns so I'm asking our members to refrain from discussing them in this topic.

Sorry Zonie, I think I started that chain. It was supposed to be an isolated reference but as always it led to more. Wont let it happen again,

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sorry Zonie, I think I started that chain. It was supposed to be an isolated reference but as always it led to more. Wont let it happen again,

No no, it was I.
Sorry Z.

B.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

When I commented about a ring bulged barrel shooting well out to 1000 I was reffering to my .451" 5 groove MUZZLE LOADER. Didn't mean to cause any confusion..

 

[Dr5x]

A "Ringd barrel" is what I call a bulged barrel.
fThe person who told you the ring made the rifles more accurate is a thief who is trying to rid himself of a ruined rifle barrel.
A bulge in a barrel allows for theses and pressures to blow by the etched round ball.
There is NO WAY that condition would add to the barrel's accuracy.

The way to determine if a barrel is "Ringed" or bulged is in my book. You fit a few patches on your jag and slowly let it slide down a clean barrel. If there is a wide sot in the bore. the rod will skip by that spot. It will be very obvious when this happens. Do not buy the rifle.
Your only recourse is to replace the barrel entirely or to send it to Fairfield. Pennsylvania and have Bobby rebore the barrel to a slightly larger caliber.

Ringed or bulged barrels are created by not seating the patched ball firmly on the powder. Most are caused by short staring the patched ball 5 or 6 inches into the muzzle and then getting distracted by visiting or riflemen or any other distraction that causes you to forget to seat the patched ball.
Contrary to what you might think, the bulge or ring is not evident on the outside of the barrel.
When someone does this, he will never achieve accuracy. This the first reason he has for selling the rifle. Accordingly. It is the strongest reason for checking the bore with the above described test. If the seller won't allow you to run that test, walk away rapidly..

I would regard with major suspicion anyone who says a ringed or bulged barrel might add to accuracy.

Dutch Schoultz

Perhaps in the modern guns you mention, ringing might not cause a problem but I think rifled muzzleloading guns shooting patched roundballs is different.

The one gun I bought that had a ringed barrel was a old CVA Mountain rifle. I didn't know when I bought it that it had this problem and had heard that these guns shoot very accuretly.
My first trip to the range proved differently.

Regardless of the ball and patch I tried, the group size at 50 yards was all over the 12" X 12" target and this was shooting off the bench with my left elbow firmly planted on it.

After finding some of the shot patches I found that they all were badly burned and torn at the place where the ball had contacted the bore.
When I got home and started to clean the gun, it became obvious the barrel was ringed.

IMO, the patch was probably doing fine as it and the ball moved up the barrel but when they got to the ringed area and the "fit" suddenly became looser the hot gasses blew past the patch and burned it badly. From that point on, the patch not only didn't seal the bore but the patch lost its grip on the rifling resulting in the poor accuracy.

 

[Dr5x]

Boomerang.
What you suggest would not work as theRing or Bulge evident only on the inside of the rifle. The outside usually shows little or no sign of the enlarged section inside the barrel.

Dutch Schoultz

I wonder if anyone ever tried to un-ring a barrel with a hydraulic press or a good strong vise with shims on the high spots?

 

[Britsmoothy]

It is often visible on the out side when the barrel is held up to the light.

Dutch, what tests have you conducted with bulged barrels and patch balls?

B.

 

[Dr5x]

ALL EFFORTS TO GET GOOD RESULTS OUT OF RINGED OR BULGED BARRELS WERE FAILURE.
WHEN COACHING AT THE RANGE. MY FIRST CHECK ON A RIFLE GETTING SHOT GUN GROUPS WAS TO RUN A TIGHT PATCH AND JAG COMBO DOWN THE THE RIFLE BORE TO SEE IF THERE WAS A BULGE. I THERE WAS SUCH A RUINING CONDITION I WOULD FREQUENTLY TRY A FEW SHOTS AND THEY NEVER PERFORMED AT ALL WELL.
BOBBY HOYT IN FAIRFIELD, PA. SPENDS A LOT OF HIS TIME RERIFLING BULGED OR RINGED BARRELS

ASTHERE IS ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY OF MY BEING WRONG, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR OF ANY EXAMPLE OF A RINGED OR BULGED BARREL GIVING ANY SATISFAFACTOY GROUPS.
WHEN COCHING I WOULD WORK WITH 4 OR 5 RIFLES EACH DAY AT THE RANGE.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

It is often visible on the out side when the barrel is held up to the light.

Dutch, what tests have you conducted with bulged barrels and patch balls?

B.

 

[Griz44Mag]

For fouling that may be mis-identified as ringing,
Load a few rounds with a very damp MAP patch and see if it changes.
Especially in a smoothebore, I see a very distinct change by loading with a MAP patch every 4 or 5 shots.
I use my regularly scheduled mink patch the rest of the time.
I can shoot all day long like this without wiping or taking time to clean.
Now, cleaning up the pan and frizzen regularly is a different tale to be told...

 

[Britsmoothy]

ALL EFFORTS TO GET GOOD RESULTS OUT OF RINGED OR BULGED BARRELS WERE FAILURE.
WHEN COACHING AT THE RANGE. MY FIRST CHECK ON A RIFLE GETTING SHOT GUN GROUPS WAS TO RUN A TIGHT PATCH AND JAG COMBO DOWN THE THE RIFLE BORE TO SEE IF THERE WAS A BULGE. I THERE WAS SUCH A RUINING CONDITION I WOULD FREQUENTLY TRY A FEW SHOTS AND THEY NEVER PERFORMED AT ALL WELL.
BOBBY HOYT IN FAIRFIELD, PA. SPENDS A LOT OF HIS TIME RERIFLING BULGED OR RINGED BARRELS

ASTHERE IS ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY OF MY BEING WRONG, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR OF ANY EXAMPLE OF A RINGED OR BULGED BARREL GIVING ANY SATISFAFACTOY GROUPS.
WHEN COCHING I WOULD WORK WITH 4 OR 5 RIFLES EACH DAY AT THE RANGE.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

So are you saying you didn't really try with a bulged barrel due to a pre conceived notion it won't shoot?

May I say please that I too have seen many a lousy group from a rifle in perfect condition!

 

[Zonie]

Brit: Notice the highlighted words:

ALL EFFORTS TO GET GOOD RESULTS OUT OF RINGED OR BULGED BARRELS WERE FAILURE.
WHEN COACHING AT THE RANGE. MY FIRST CHECK ON A RIFLE GETTING SHOT GUN GROUPS WAS TO RUN A TIGHT PATCH AND JAG COMBO DOWN THE THE RIFLE BORE TO SEE IF THERE WAS A BULGE. I THERE WAS SUCH A RUINING CONDITION I WOULD FREQUENTLY TRY A FEW SHOTS AND THEY NEVER PERFORMED AT ALL WELL.
BOBBY HOYT IN FAIRFIELD, PA. SPENDS A LOT OF HIS TIME RERIFLING BULGED OR RINGED BARRELS

ASTHERE IS ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY OF MY BEING WRONG, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR OF ANY EXAMPLE OF A RINGED OR BULGED BARREL GIVING ANY SATISFAFACTOY GROUPS.
WHEN COCHING I WOULD WORK WITH 4 OR 5 RIFLES EACH DAY AT THE RANGE.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

Dutch's findings are the same findings I had with the CVA I had purchased and shot a number of times while I tried to find a load that it would like.

 

[FishDFly]

I wonder if anyone ever tried to un-ring a barrel with a hydraulic press or a good strong vise with shims on the high spots?

How would you control the un-ringing with out constricting the barrel interior diameter and causing a very unsafe condition?

Sounds like a good way to get hurt to me.

 

[Adui]

How would you control the un-ringing with out constricting the barrel interior diameter and causing a very unsafe condition?

Sounds like a good way to get hurt to me.

let me preface this with an admission that i have ABSOLUTELY no training nor expertise in metal work of any kind.

What if we controlled the contraction, or under sizing by pushing a rifling button that fit the bore and rifling that it had in until it reached the ring / bulge. I believe that is how modern barrels are hammer forged..

 

[FishDFly]

What if we controlled the contraction, or under sizing by pushing a rifling button that fit the bore and rifling that it had in until it reached the ring / bulge. I believe that is how modern barrels are hammer forged..

What if? What if a frog had wings, he would not bump his rear end when he hopped.

 

[Adui]

What if? What if a frog had wings, he would not bump his rear end when he hopped.

I have to say i don not understand you response.l It is common practice to hammer forge modern barrels using the method I tried to describe, and yet you your response is what if frogs fly?? You might at least do a brief search of the method I am describing before insulting me even offhandedly...

I'll be nice and add a credential here: