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123.DieselBenz said:
Yeah. And have someone else watch for them in the air.
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How do these patches look?
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Yeah. And have someone else watch for them in the air.
Hey, Roundball stole my used patches! :rotf:
Robby
Robby
paulvallandigham
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As is shown in the patches pictured by RoundBall, the edges should be frayed- as they are "whipped" back when the ball and patch leave the muzzle and the patch hits the air- just like cracking a whip frays the ends.
If the patch is the correct thickness to fill the grooves, you won't find " Daggers" coming off the dark ring, towards the outer edges, where gas is blowing carbon out past the PRB towards the muzzle. None appear on Roundball's patches.
The fabric should be intact- NO holes, cuts, stretch marks where the lands appear, and certainly no tears or burned Hole in the center of the patching. You can expect the color of the patch in the Center to be a bit "whiter" than the color that surrounds the edge, simply because the Heat of the burning powder has an effect on that fabric. :thumbsup:
If the patch is the correct thickness to fill the grooves, you won't find " Daggers" coming off the dark ring, towards the outer edges, where gas is blowing carbon out past the PRB towards the muzzle. None appear on Roundball's patches.
The fabric should be intact- NO holes, cuts, stretch marks where the lands appear, and certainly no tears or burned Hole in the center of the patching. You can expect the color of the patch in the Center to be a bit "whiter" than the color that surrounds the edge, simply because the Heat of the burning powder has an effect on that fabric. :thumbsup:
Patches are too thin.
If fouling is an issue then look into different patch lubes.
Patches such as you show are generally grossly over priced.
Try buying 100% cotton blue stripe pillow ticking from Walmart or a fabric store. It will be about .018 thick. If it does not load easy enough the crown is likely the problem.
Make a hole in a piece of pine that you lay the patch material over and push a ball into the hole flush then cut off the patch a sharp knife.
This will give the same patch as if cut at the muzzle. They don't have to be round.
Lube with PURE Neatsfoot oil like Fiebings. Leave pretty wet, not dripped but saturated. Store in tin box (not brass or german silver) or a small jar to keep the lube from migrating out of the patch.
For range shooting windshield washer fluid will work as patch lube and eliminate wiping so long as the rifle is not left loaded for any time.
The powder you use and the climate will also effect fouling.
I would increase the powder charge as well. Many 50s like as much as 90 gr of fff.
Dan
If fouling is an issue then look into different patch lubes.
Patches such as you show are generally grossly over priced.
Try buying 100% cotton blue stripe pillow ticking from Walmart or a fabric store. It will be about .018 thick. If it does not load easy enough the crown is likely the problem.
Make a hole in a piece of pine that you lay the patch material over and push a ball into the hole flush then cut off the patch a sharp knife.
This will give the same patch as if cut at the muzzle. They don't have to be round.
Lube with PURE Neatsfoot oil like Fiebings. Leave pretty wet, not dripped but saturated. Store in tin box (not brass or german silver) or a small jar to keep the lube from migrating out of the patch.
For range shooting windshield washer fluid will work as patch lube and eliminate wiping so long as the rifle is not left loaded for any time.
The powder you use and the climate will also effect fouling.
I would increase the powder charge as well. Many 50s like as much as 90 gr of fff.
Dan
Well the store bough prelubed patches cost about 5 bucks for 100 or around 5 cents each. If I spend a buck on patches during a shooting session I've shot a lot. Its not breaking the bank.
However, cutting my own from pillow ticking or the like is something I'd like to try. It just seems like an authentic process that would be enjoyable to me. Also that way I could try out a few of these different lubes many people like.
I've ordered some new loading gear, with Roundball's help, that should help me load a thicker patch easier.
If fouling is still an issue I plan to try out the Hoppes Black Powder lube. A couple folks here have posted that using it has made fouling a total non issue.
However, cutting my own from pillow ticking or the like is something I'd like to try. It just seems like an authentic process that would be enjoyable to me. Also that way I could try out a few of these different lubes many people like.
I've ordered some new loading gear, with Roundball's help, that should help me load a thicker patch easier.
If fouling is still an issue I plan to try out the Hoppes Black Powder lube. A couple folks here have posted that using it has made fouling a total non issue.
hockeyref
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How thin can we go on a patch before you really need to look and a smaller diameter ball? Has anyone found anything in the .010" range that will hold up? Yeah I realize that the OP is trying .010" patches but it sounds like they are a bit of a sloppy fit. What if .014" and a .490" ball is too tight and .010" or so might be the right fit? Drop down in ball size and go to .015" patch??
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Yeah, but I'm having a brainfard about the name. It's in yardage shops and is a real fine-weave cotton.
Oh yeah, muslin. I got some and ran it through the washer and dryer a couple of times, and I've been amazed how tough it is. I still prefer thicker patches, but if you can't go that route, muslin is worth a try.
Oh yeah, muslin. I got some and ran it through the washer and dryer a couple of times, and I've been amazed how tough it is. I still prefer thicker patches, but if you can't go that route, muslin is worth a try.
Thicker patches are always more accurate for me, plus they hold more lube...and an additional benefit to me is that they also accommodate variances in ball diameters better and still load OK...compared to an almost bore size ball with a paper thin patch...no wiggle room.
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roundball said:
Amen to that, but I've never seen it mentioned before. It's a deal breaker for me.
paulvallandigham
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Think about what you are asking a fabric patch to do:
1. Center the ball in the bore, and hold it in place in the barrel;
2. seal gases behind the ball so that the ball is not cut or melted by hot gases, blowing by;
3. clean the bore as the PRB is loaded; and
4. lube the bore with grease or oil and wax from the patch, so that fouling is kept soft after the shot is fired, and keep the lead ball from rubbing lead off on the bore as it moves down and up the bore, preventing lead streaks.
If the ball diameter is too small for the patch thickness used, its not going to do a very good job of either centering the ball in the bore, or sealing gases, and it may not be held in place in the barrel very well, either.
If the patch fabric is too thin for the ball diameter in that bore, it simply can't carry enough LUBE to adequately clean or grease the bore, much less serve as an adequate firewall.
You can transfer the duties of sealing the bore from your patch choice by using OP wads to seal the gases, and provide a 'FIREWALL' to protect that thin patch from burning. That allows you to use a thinner patch than many actually give better accuracy, so that you can load the gun faster IN THE FIELD. There is no need to Load fast at the range.
You have to know the bore diameter, in Thousandths of an inch, as well as the Ball diameter you intend to use, to make some kind of reasoned decision on what size thickness a patch should work best. Then you try several thicknesses, READ the spent patches, and let the gun tell you what is working and what isn't.
If you are using too big a ball, and too thin a patch, just to get it down the bore, without the OP wads providing a seal, the Spent Patch will be burned, or torn in shreds, or show black streaks advancing in front of the ring where the patch is wedged between the ball and bore. Accuracy will be poor.
General advice, always subject to change, depending on Gauge or bore (caliber) diameter, in smooth bores, is to choose a ball diameter that is .020" smaller than bore diameter. Then choose a fabric patch that is at least .015" thick, expecting compression of the cotton fabric to give a good seal around the bore, and enough fabric to carry enough lube to create a "firewall", as well as lube the bore, etc.
Sometimes, you can't find standard size ball molds that provide that correct relationship between ball diameter and bore diameter. You can choose a smaller bore, and use thicker patches, or order a custom mold to cast the size ball you need.
Some people shoot bare balls( almost- as most of them dip the plain lead balls into a wax/oil lube and let the lube dry before the ball is fired)that are fairly close to bore diameter, and omit the fabric patch all together. They use OP wads, or TOW, or some other kind of wadding between the powder charge, and the ball to provide some kind of seal. They use similar "stuff" on top of the ball to hold the ball in place inside the barrel.
They expect the soft lead to " bump up" in diameter and fill the bore on firing, thereby overcoming the lack of "centering of the ball" that using a fabric patch would provide.
If they lube the bore ahead of the BALL, the grease will prevent lead from rubbing off inside the bore, and adversely affecting accuracy as it builds up in the barrel. Other wise, they accept " Minute of barn door groups", and just limit the range at which they shoot RBs from their guns.
If you understand where you are trying to go, and then analyze how you will get there, you can quickly understand the advantages and disadvantages of any choices you make in how you load that ball in your gun. There are consequences for everything you do when loading your gun- some good and some bad. LEARNING TO READ your spent patches is the quickest route to solving the problems. :hmm: :hatsoff:
1. Center the ball in the bore, and hold it in place in the barrel;
2. seal gases behind the ball so that the ball is not cut or melted by hot gases, blowing by;
3. clean the bore as the PRB is loaded; and
4. lube the bore with grease or oil and wax from the patch, so that fouling is kept soft after the shot is fired, and keep the lead ball from rubbing lead off on the bore as it moves down and up the bore, preventing lead streaks.
If the ball diameter is too small for the patch thickness used, its not going to do a very good job of either centering the ball in the bore, or sealing gases, and it may not be held in place in the barrel very well, either.
If the patch fabric is too thin for the ball diameter in that bore, it simply can't carry enough LUBE to adequately clean or grease the bore, much less serve as an adequate firewall.
You can transfer the duties of sealing the bore from your patch choice by using OP wads to seal the gases, and provide a 'FIREWALL' to protect that thin patch from burning. That allows you to use a thinner patch than many actually give better accuracy, so that you can load the gun faster IN THE FIELD. There is no need to Load fast at the range.
You have to know the bore diameter, in Thousandths of an inch, as well as the Ball diameter you intend to use, to make some kind of reasoned decision on what size thickness a patch should work best. Then you try several thicknesses, READ the spent patches, and let the gun tell you what is working and what isn't.
If you are using too big a ball, and too thin a patch, just to get it down the bore, without the OP wads providing a seal, the Spent Patch will be burned, or torn in shreds, or show black streaks advancing in front of the ring where the patch is wedged between the ball and bore. Accuracy will be poor.
General advice, always subject to change, depending on Gauge or bore (caliber) diameter, in smooth bores, is to choose a ball diameter that is .020" smaller than bore diameter. Then choose a fabric patch that is at least .015" thick, expecting compression of the cotton fabric to give a good seal around the bore, and enough fabric to carry enough lube to create a "firewall", as well as lube the bore, etc.
Sometimes, you can't find standard size ball molds that provide that correct relationship between ball diameter and bore diameter. You can choose a smaller bore, and use thicker patches, or order a custom mold to cast the size ball you need.
Some people shoot bare balls( almost- as most of them dip the plain lead balls into a wax/oil lube and let the lube dry before the ball is fired)that are fairly close to bore diameter, and omit the fabric patch all together. They use OP wads, or TOW, or some other kind of wadding between the powder charge, and the ball to provide some kind of seal. They use similar "stuff" on top of the ball to hold the ball in place inside the barrel.
They expect the soft lead to " bump up" in diameter and fill the bore on firing, thereby overcoming the lack of "centering of the ball" that using a fabric patch would provide.
If they lube the bore ahead of the BALL, the grease will prevent lead from rubbing off inside the bore, and adversely affecting accuracy as it builds up in the barrel. Other wise, they accept " Minute of barn door groups", and just limit the range at which they shoot RBs from their guns.
If you understand where you are trying to go, and then analyze how you will get there, you can quickly understand the advantages and disadvantages of any choices you make in how you load that ball in your gun. There are consequences for everything you do when loading your gun- some good and some bad. LEARNING TO READ your spent patches is the quickest route to solving the problems. :hmm: :hatsoff:
i picked up some nice tightly woven pocket drill from Jo Ann's fabric for $10 a yard. i can thumb start a .535 ball in my GPR with it. accuracy was decent with it ( 2 inch @ 50 yds benched) but i only tested it out to 50 yards. didnt get any burn through, and i can thumb start the ball with ease. figured it make a good close range patch.
Hockeyref said:
The patch has to be significantly thicker than the grooves are deep.
This is the problem with custom barrels with really deep grooves can't be filled.
If a .018 and a 490 is too tight you don't have a 50 caliber barrel. I shoot 495s and even 498s is a 50 cal Green Mountain with the same .018-.020 patch. The Blue striped 100% cotton ticking from Jo Anns is .018+. I use the narrower width stuff that has a lot of sizing in it and requires washing before use.
SFAIK its impossible to buy premade patching that is this heavy and .015 is just too thin in cotton IMO.
Making your own patches allows a wider selection of patch thicknesses and materials. Linen is tougher than cotton and harder to compress but is the historic choice. Unfortunately its hard to find in suitable thickness.
A lot of peoples problems stem from a poor crown.
Some "blown patches" are actually cut when the ball is started into the bore.
Lube can be another factor.
I can start a 535 ball is a 54 cal Douglas with a .018 patch with just the rod and the barrel is not "funneled" its simply crowned.
http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/Video 1/
Dan
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Sham66
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Howdy!
You may also want to consider spending $15 at
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com
Dutch's system helped me immensely.
James
You may also want to consider spending $15 at
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com
Dutch's system helped me immensely.
James
Last edited by a moderator:
