How do you load your smoothbores?

[Mike Brooks]

I load mine from the muzzle. :wink:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

The context of this thread as set forth by the OP was for a good load that is correct to mid 18th century. Unless someone can come up with some proof of PRB ( in the period patching was used and considered as a means to seal rifling and impart the spin) we are dealing with wadding. Now as to wadding, hornet and wasps nests are also apparently out as well unless new information comes to light.

 

[Mike Brooks]

What's the first mention of punched cards and wads historically?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

What's the first mention of punched cards and wads historically?

References can be found for card paper wadding cut to bore size by fourth quarter 18th century England. Of course hat, tow, leather are still being used as well by the gentry. It appears to me that by the turn of the 19th century, and with the onset popularity of supplying guns with case and accoutrements, the use of punches for fine firearms becomes quite common.
I dont believe one would find much use of same in 18th century America except with the wealthy planter types.

 

[Stumpkiller]

What's the first mention of punched cards and wads historically?

1745 - Jacques de Vaucanson built the world's first successful automated loom that used punched cards to "program" the pattern. :wink:

 

[Mike Brooks]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/skins/cobalt/icons/blush.gifWhat's the first mention of punched cards and wads historically?

References can be found for card paper wadding cut to bore size by fourth quarter 18th century England. Of course hat, tow, leather are still being used as well by the gentry. It appears to me that by the turn of the 19th century, and with the onset popularity of supplying guns with case and accoutrements, the use of punches for fine firearms becomes quite common.
I dont believe one would find much use of same in 18th century America except with the wealthy planter types.

Alls you'd need is the punch and you'd be in business. It's surprising they wern't in common use much earlier. Not arguing your research, just surprised. You yourself know how much better these guns shoot with something as simple as a punched card or felt, hard to imagine these old timers didn't have it figured out early on. :idunno:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Well Mike, my research is always ongoing and open for new information. The references of which I speak do not allude to a new process so I suspect it was in use prior by some. How early I do not know. I would think though you will have to compromise historicity for performance if you go with punched card and wad with your masterpiece.
:rotf:

Now as far as felt wadding, you can take that back a ways with " old hat".

 

[George]

References can be found for card paper wadding cut to bore size by fourth quarter 18th century England.

A bit earlier, I think. From "The Art of Shooting Flying", Thomas Page, published in London in 1767:

FRIENDLY
And what sort of wadding do you best approve of? I have heard some say that tow is best, others, cards stamped to fit the size of the bore.

AIMWELL
Tow, I think, is uncertain. If cards be used, the end of your rammer must be almost as broad as your barrel will admit of, to go down free, and quite flat at the end, to prevent the card from turning; and must be push'd down gradually, to give time for the air to pass, otherwise it will be troublesome. This is therefore not the quickest way. Old hat may be used in the same manner, which is rather better: and some say leather shreds are best.

And as you said, this is obviously not something new they are discussing.

Spence

 

[Stumpkiller]

MY MAN! That's a card for sure. Wads don't turn. :applause: :applause:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Thanks Spence. That is the main one I was thinking of and thought it was third quarter but was afraid to date as such without the quote. There MAY be one more I have from the early 1760's and I will post it if I can find it. Definitely will be after the Williamsburg show though. :grin:

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Well, I had time to check thru my books last night and I was mistaken on the 1762 reference. The 1767 post that Spence quoted is the earliest one I can find.
I did find reference to cutting paste-board to exact bore size and running it down to the breech to check for any anomalies in the boring. This is in Blome's "Gentleman's Recreation, 1686 and also mentioned again in the Sportsman's Dictionary of 1735. Some modern writers have interpreted the "Pteryplegia" line of "Now search for Tow, and fome old Saddle pierce." to mean compressed tow from inside a saddle. I believe this line refers to tow AND punched leather wads from an old saddle.

The interesting thing is that cards during the 18th century did not become considered universally superior. If you read the "conversation" of "Aimwell" above you get the hint that their use was time consuming to load and that I am sure was a contributing factor on their universal acceptance.

What has continued from a very early period until today and has also kept a fairly high acclaim is the felt wad or "old hat".

Now for usage in America I have not found anything as of yet to show the use of punched cards and wads. Plenty of references for many other forms of wadding though. Of course that does not mean their use was not had. You even have planters ordering guns from London in the early 1770's and requiring spring chargers for powder and shot so a punch and some card is not far fetched for the wealthy but would need to have some reference to justify it in the HC realm. For the average colonist...... notsomuch in my opinion.

 

[tg]

I did not mention cards in my response due to the lacking of colonial references and whether the type we now use (the commercialy made type) would be considered PC I suspect not when compared to original types that are mentioned, I do not think the type of material here is nitpicking as it would be very easy to use what was used in the past, not doing so is just taking a short cut. It is not like the steel barrel usage, or chainsaw to cut the tree analogy.I suppose for this way of looking at it the thread would have to be farther down on the list of sub forums to suit most of the membership however.

 

[George]

Some modern writers have interpreted the "Pteryplegia" line of "Now search for Tow, and fome old Saddle pierce." to mean compressed tow from inside a saddle. I believe this line refers to tow AND punched leather wads from an old saddle.

I think he was talking about the stuffing, not the leather. I can see that compressed tow might work well as wadding, and if he were speaking of leather, why would he specify saddle leather?

The interesting thing is that cards during the 18th century did not become considered universally superior.

Yes, in the above citation, Page mentions tow, cards, hat and leather, then goes on to say he prefers folded brown paper to all of them. This same high opinion of brown paper is expressed by Wm. Cleator a bit later, 1789, who rates hat as best, then says:

"Next to hat, therefore, experience teaches, that nothing is better for wadding than soft brown paper; it combines suppleness with consistence, and moulds itself to the barrel; and it is further observable, that such wadding never falls to the ground, in less than twelve or fifteen paces from the muzzle of the piece."

Page also did a fair bit of experimenting with no wad between powder and shot and said he got good patterns if he was careful not to let them mix in loading, gave pellet counts as good as with wadding. He thought any wadding would work well so long as it prevented powder and shot from mixing.

Cleator also mentions cork as being recommended by some shooters, but hadn't tried it. He recommended a thick woolen cloth called fearnought as being cheaper and as good as brown paper when punched to bore-size discs.

Spence

 

[Coot]

Some modern writers have interpreted the "Pteryplegia" line of "Now search for Tow, and fome old Saddle pierce." to mean compressed tow from inside a saddle. I believe this line refers to tow AND punched leather wads from an old saddle.

Saddles, even in daily use, tend to last a long time & the only way to get compressed tow from inside one would be when re-stuffing the saddle or to get punched leather wads would be when the saddle was considered past repair & the leather not repurposed for some other use. Both not a very frequent occurrence & therefore not a plentiful supply for the shooters. On the other hand, many equestrians believe that the historic term "saddle piece" is a wool felt that today would be called a saddle pad (english riders) or a saddle blanket (western riders). These "saddle pieces" are replaced much more frequently than saddles esp when worn thin/thru at contact points & would make a much more available source of wad material.

 

[George]

That's an interesting thought, Coot. I would point out that in all the versions of the poem I have seen the term is "saddle pierce", not piece. I have been looking for a definition for that term for years without success, so maybe it was a long-ago misprint.

Spence

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Yes, I have seen an original and it is for a fact "pierce" although a wool felt saddle piece would have made some good wad as well. I do not think it to be a misprint as it was published 3 different times before the term would have been lost in time. If misprinted I would think it would have been corrected but anything is possible. Looking at old dictionaries, there is nothing to make me think the word is tied to the stuffing but more to penetration or puncture. The text says to take tow AND some old saddle pierce which makes me think of the leather and not the tow as there would be no need for tow AND tow from a saddle. The idea of the compressed tow being saddle pierce is from modern interpretation, be it correct or not.
As far as frequency and availability of of saddles to use as wedding, the same could be said for "old hat" :grin:

Still holding to the leather at this point.

 

[Coot]

.
As far as frequency and availability of of saddles to use as wedding, the same could be said for "old hat" :grin:

Still holding to the leather at this point.

Everyone had a hat but only a few owned saddles. If leather is desired (& it seems to work well as does felt) why not "old shoe or old belt" which would have been common?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

.
As far as frequency and availability of of saddles to use as wedding, the same could be said for "old hat" :grin:

Still holding to the leather at this point.

Everyone had a hat but only a few owned saddles. If leather is desired (& it seems to work well as does felt) why not "old shoe or old belt" which would have been common?

The upper class English to whom that book was written would have owned saddles and would have had someone to punch their wads for them. :grin:

Not giving up on your theory Coot. It is ahead of using tow AND tow from an old saddle.
:grin:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Although I have never tried it I would think leather would make a fine punched wad/card for fowling. I'll have to try it some time.

 

[tradegunner1823]

If I'm hunting, I use a .010 cotton patch lubed with a mix of bear fat and bee's wax and a .600 roundball and 50gr fff powder. If I'm shooting a trail or a fort or stake shoot I never patch. With a long gong, I might use wadding. You don't patch a smoothbore cannon, why patch a tradegun? As for accuracy,I've won my share of shoots