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how flat does a 62 ca. RB shoot?

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Hello Fellas
Gee here is one for yea's , has anyone have experience shooting a 62 cal. rifled round ball gun? How does or did it shoot and what do you think I should expect? Yardage? grouping? I have shot lots of 45, 50, even 54 rifles with success in the 50 and 54 out to 100 yds. Any comments or findings that you have come up with would be appreciated....
Best regards LoyalistDawg...
"O" yea "Long live the KING!!!" :hatsoff:
 
If you load a 62 to approx the same velocity as a 50 or 54 it will have basically the same trajectory. It will kick a lot more!! :eek: I use 160 gr of Goex FFg in mine and it crono's at 1641 fps at the muzzle. :: Hope that helps.

Othern
 
of course velocity is part of this equation.. ive done a heck of lot of balistic work on this very subject.. i had getz make me a 1/66 flat bottom groove barrel, 42 inch swamped for the jim chambers mark silver kit,.. ive shot it three outings, and its at the smiths now getting the rear sight dovetailed in.. it shot excelent with very tight patch that is .62 bore, .610 ball and .017 patch..(and the rear sight taped on) it must be started with a mallot but first group with 110 grains at 100 yards was 2 1/4 inches.. the down side is that i so far can get only two shots off without wiping, we are talking a lot of soot here.. 110 grains has pleasant recoil in a 8 3/4 pound gun with 2fg.. similar to about 20 gauge i would guess.. im going to sight in with 1500 ft per second which is what 110 grains chronographs at 80 degrees.. at a 110 yard sight in it makes it a strait on shot for deer and elk to 125 yards.. i can hold a little low for compesation to help out in the midrange.. so here goes, 20 yards 1.4 inches high, 40 yards 2.8 inches high, 60 yards 3.3 inches high, 80 yards 2.9 inches high, 100 yards 1.3 inches high, 120 yards 1.6 inches low, 130 yards 3.6 inches low.. these are balastics from beartooth bullets web page.. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/ ... with a 90 yard zero in- it is .9 inches high at 20 yards,,1.8 inches high at 40 yards,,,1.8 inches high at 60 yards, .9 inches high at 80 yards,, 1.2 inches low at 100 yards,, 2.7 inches low at 110 yards.... ,,. the bigger balls hold energy better than smaller balls for some reason, giving the .62 more power than a .54 for example at 100 yards, with less recoil.. i first thought that the diffeence was the powder that caused the increased recoil difference, but after examination its the much extramuzzel velocity of the smaller ball that is needed to get simmilar power at 100 yards..e=mv2(squared velocity). the more one gets over the speed of sound with these poor balistic coeficeint balls the faster they slow down.. this gun will be fun to shoot with 70 80 grains and should not need all the wiping, and with 3f may not foul so badly,, but shes a racehorse and wants to run,,.. that is groups are much better (at this time) at 1500 fps.. i did quite a bit of asking around and wide flat bottom groove is what you want for accuracy.. takes longer to reload, and does not let second ball slide over the fouling for fast reload like a round bottom groove,, which gives better accuracy, but harder reloading.. , but two shots is what its all about in a big game gun..to me anyway.. dave.
 
Otherns reply is right on, i checked the balistics and the mid trajectory with a .54 at the same velocity (1500) is only .3 inches higher at midrange, and .2 inches lower at 130 yards than the .62....
to get the same power at 100 yards (aprox 830 foot pounds engergy) as a .62,, the .54 must be moveing at muzzel velocity of aprox 2070 fps.. recoil from the beartooth page with these comparisons is .62 cal--- 110 grains ffg, 1500 fps, 8 3/4 pound gun is 23 foot pounds recoil at 13 fps... the .54 cal-- 160 grains ffg, 2070 fps, in a 8 3/4 pound gun is an astounding 39 foot pounds at 17 fps...that is similar to a 338 win mag with 250 grain bullet! of course we looking at paper balistics here.. the push of black powder is less felt recoil, and the bigger bullets(balls) in my estimation give more real power than what paper ballistics show.. its fun to dittle away the night with such drivel tho.. dave..
 
Thaks Dave
I will look forward to comparing what all you guys have said. this is what I was looking for, to get an idea of what to expect. I have printed this finding out, and will let you fellows know mine... Thanks again Loyalistdawg :thanks: :hatsoff:
 
I use this roundball out of my smooth rifle. I use the Buffalo ball .610 round ball with .010 thick oiled ox-yoke patch. With 60 grains Swiss blackpowder (2F), 75 yards no problem. Puts them in the same hole everytime on target. Don't forget roundball is the most stable object in the air, all you have to do is find its "sweet spot"! Good luck!
 
Here is some ballistics data from Pacific Rifle for their 20-bore Zephyr.

Ballistic Calculations of the 20 Bore Ball
Driven by 175 Grains of Black Rifle Powder
Muzzle Velocity of 1700 fps

Distance Velocity Energy BulletPath
(yards) (fps) (ft-lbs) (inches)

30 1476 1644 1.6
40 1408 1497 2.0
50 1345 1366 2.2
60 1286 1249 2.2
70 1231 1145 2.0
80 1183 1056 1.6
90 1139 979 0.9
100 1101 915 0.0
110 1067 860 -1.2
120 1038 813 -2.7
130 1012 773 -4.6
140 988 737 -6.7
150 966 705 -9.2

The barrel was 30" with 1:104 inch twist Forsyth rifling, right hand, 8 grooves.

Jimbo
 
Just a quick throw out there question. What is the reason for such black powder charge behind a roundball (175 grains) or for any projectile for that matter? I hear alot of people talk about "Oh yeah I put 150 grains behind my 54 cal". For what! Beside your shoulder being blown apart. I have my .577 Enfield rifle, use a 585 grain minie ball and 45 grains of swiss powder. Up to 150 yards no problem! Anyway, not trying to be mean to anyone, just curious.
 
Maybe the question should be, how affective is that much. However we should also look at the 58's military loads to compare. A 45 grain load seems to light. Have you cornyed it? I use 110 in my fifty. It's a bit much and it hits hard at a hundred. There also isn't any excess powder being found a head of the muzzle (my barrell is 41 inches). My bud uses only 75 grains in his 54. OK so any more suggestions for the sixty two? Does anyone have an opinion Is a heavier load better? Any suggestions on starter loads? best to yea Loyalist Dawg.... "O" yea
Long live the KING!!! :hatsoff: :thanks:
 
Ok, in my 20 gauge smoothbore I started with 60 grains of 2F Swiss. My findings with all sorts of powder I always come back to the Swiss. It burns so much better with less residue and burns alot more clean also. Stuck with it ever since! I would start there. I am a big fan of less is better, but that is just me. Does the job just fine for what I need to do. Even in my Bess I use 75 grains which is also just fine! If you want to use alot of powder behind a bullet and get the projectory out of it, then get an inline! :D
 
I don't have any crono fact sheets or other logistic minutia, but my old .62 x 30" Jaeger shoots perty flat. Once at a rondy in the U.P. we set up a 2 gal. gas can (empty)hanging from a low branch by a wire and paced off 150 paces (about 140yds.)and commenced shooting for beads. Hit it with the first shot as did a couple others, and on the second I held at the point where the wire contacted the top of the can....broke the wire at point of aim!!! No BS!!! Using what I always use for everything in that gun....75 gr 2F. Did I mention, offhand? That was a Green River barrel with 1/56 twist. Made a LOT of AMAZING shots with that gun, but 20 years wore it out, so I just replaced it with a Getz barrel and I expect more of the same! I don't consider myself a great O.H. shooter, so maybe it's just big bore advantage. Gotta love it. :thumbsup:
 
Boys, I'll offer the observation that in a .62 fowler any more than 80 or 90 grains of FFg is wasting powder. You may get a little more muzzle velocity with greater loads, but not enough to warrant the much greater fowling and recoil. There is a law of diminishing returns with BP charges, partly a result of the fact that the more powder you burn, the more energy it takes to push that powder and its residue down the barrel.
I have some safety concerns with very heavy loads in smoothbores, which often have much thinner barrel walls than large cal rifles.
There is no difference, in terms of pressure and velocity--assuming equal bullet weight--between shooting BP in a muzzle loader and a cartridge gun. The old 45/70 military round fired a 500 grain bullet, an in a effort to get more velocity and range the case was lengthened to hold more powder, all the way to 120 grains, but most shooters then and now agree that the extra powder capacity is of no real benefit inside 600 yards, and no one saw any benefit in more than 120 grains of powder. Exactly the same principles apply to roundballs in the 250-300 gr range.
I've tried 225 gr loads behind a roundball in my 54 Hawken, and I can hardly tell any difference in point of impact at 100 yards as compared to 90 grains, although recoil is very unplesant in a 12 lb gun.
The mountain men, we are told, used very heavy charges in their Hawken rifles to maximize killing power at long range. If any of you can reliably hit the vital area of a deer with a smoothbore under hunting conditions past 70 yards, you may have a reason to load more than 80 or 90 grs. Of course, you are free to shoot any load you wish, but I hope you'll warn me and give me a chance to get out of the way before you touch off 175 grs in a lightweight fusil or fowler, or even a well made Bess.
 
Yes I agree, I shoot the max. 120 grns out of my sweet heart (Bess). However she loves 110 at fifty. That happens to be the same load that my real darling "Peg" likes when she hunting with me. She is a 1963 Penn. 50 Cal.(From CVA)... She kills rabits with head shots (free hand of course) EVERY TIME at fifty. Hits the bunnys almost every time at ninty... Now that's no BS either...
Yet my "Little one" (a 45 al.) works great with 75 grns at Fifty... However she is leaving me for another my 12 year old son. Damn he can hit with her out to 70 yds. He loves her when she is on this load...
Well the best to yea, and may the "KING" always smile down on yeas...
:kid: :hatsoff: Loyalist Dawg :thumbsup:
 
I shoot a ERA cumberland flintlock in .62. I'm loading 125 grns of 2ff goex.with a pillow ticking patch,cut at the muzzle, lubed with murphys oil soap and window washing fluid. From a bench,with only my elbows supported , this combination will consistantly shoot groups of 1 inch and less at 50 yds. I don't have a cronigraph but I can tell you that that ball gets downrange in a hurry.At 100 yds it,s about 2 1/2 inches low.
 
Have someone shoot it in low light, or even after dark and watch how much powder is being burnt outside the barrel. If it seems extreme start cutting your load. I know for some reason, some guns just like large loads but if you can get most of the powder burned in the barrel and still have an accurate gun your powder will last longer and so will your shoulder. I have found over the years I don't need near the powder I thought I needed, even when used to bring down deer. In my Northwest trade gun 62 cal (smooth bore) I have taken deer the last 2 years with 65-70 grains 2f at out to 50 yards and the deer just dropped. As many have said here many times it's ball placement that counts.
 
One of the things with muzzleloading, round balls, and ballistics of those, is that the whole system in not very efficient comparatively speaking.

Now before anyone gets their knickers in a knot, just listen.

Black powder is very inefficient as a gun propellant--that's why the inventors kept looking at new smokeless powders that pack more energy per grain and were consumed almost 100% in the fiery ignition of such. Also why inventors came up with pointed bullets and boat tailed bullets, and faster twists to keep these inherently unstable projectiles from flipping around and tumbling like rolling dice.

What was said about a round ball is true. It is a ballistic anomaly, as it really requires ZERO spin to go straight, BUT there are voids, and sprue nibs and tears, and some round balls are not as "round" as others, and every one doesn't weigh the exact same amount as others of same diameter. It is only these variances in the round ball that make a rifled barrel shoot them much better than a smoothbore.

IF we REALLY had high quality smoothbore barrels and absolutely perfectly round balls with ZERO weight tolerance and could load them without distortion, and very consistently, and some of the better match grades of black powder that used to exist--we could shoot them just as far and as accurate over the effective distance of the muzzleloading gun--which is really about 125yds.

Yeah, I know a rifled barrel can shoot a round ball farther and make hits and all that. I have been around for a while. But "apples to apples", a smoothbore is just as accurate as a rifle within those confines and limitations.

The reason for using all that powder in a Zephyr or ANY gun for that matter is that relative to the results, powder is cheap enough that you can use much more to get very few additional fps of velocity. Those few extra feet per second come at the expense of high recoil, more fouling, more smoke, shorter gun life (parts break and wear faster), you get the picture...?

A smoothbore can tolerate more powder than a rifle, and those shallow rifled very slow twist barrels are better for heavier powder charges as they are getting "almost" back to being a smoothbore. Very little added spin is needed to keep a sherical projectile stablized--since it is the most inherently stable projectile to begin with. Now, whether that is why the poor ballistic efficiency is the trade-off is unknown. A round ball loses SO MUCH velocity so very VERY quickly that you should "rarely ever" look at ballistics beyond 125yds, if you are being truly realistic about the whole thing. Look at a ballistics chart that shows the trajectory of a max velocity round ball and a max velocity maxi ball (or other solid base conical) and see how far the drop differs at 125yds. I bet you'll find that there is so little difference that it "should" make you wonder why you bother with the conicals... the difference is retained energy, penetration, or expansion characteristics of the conical. The round ball is the round ball is the round ball. Conicals do very different things depending on how fast they go and what they hit and their composition or nose profile. They are NOT the same in that respect.

NOTE: I'm NOT even going to mention saboted rounds as they are not traditional and intended for extremely fast twist guns of "more modern(?)" designs that none of us should be talking about anyway. IF you want to know why the "I" word is so much of an distorted image of the traditional muzzleloader, it's because of that very fast twist and what projectiles and propellants they use... NOT because there weren't "I" guns made 300yrs ago in very small numbers. Enough on that subject.

If you plot (graph) the energy figures of round ball loads versus the charge weights, you should end up with a linear progression. Doesn't work for the velocity numbers every time, but the energy does seem to work out that way.
FOR AN EXAMPLE: You may only gain an extra 50fps for the next 10gr increment increase in your powder charge, compared to the 100fps increment that you just saw from the last 10gr increase. Starts to make you think that you're wasting powder (and you are up to a point); but if you look at the graph and line plot when it starts to decay or deviate from the next increase--then THAT, is where the efficiency ends.

That cut-off point may be much lower than you want it to be in a particular gun, OR it may be MUCH HIGHER than the mfr's. recommended maximum powder charge. But it is the only objective indicator that I've found that shows me where the most efficient load is at for a particular gun. Remember too that we are talking black powder and round balls ONLY here--which IS what we should be shooting 95% of the time anyway. I'm excluding or excusing conical use in those military guns that were intended to shoot conicals primarily and those guns such as the Whitworth that were very much ahead of their time.

Now all that said, I have not shot a .62 per se, but have shot ALL of the other calibers from .32 up to .72 and most in between. Never owned them all at one time, as I don't have the wherewithal to maintain much selection--I always used what I currently had to trade up/down/across to what I wanted to have next. From the headaches I've heard about from guys with very large milsurp gun collections, I am doing a smart thing, but just having no more than what I actually can use at any one time. I'm not meaning that as an insult to anyone here with a large or small contingent of muzzleloaders either. If you have 6 or 60 or only 1, doesn't matter to me, they are YOUR'S, as such are YOUR BUSINESS ONLY!

I hope I have shed some light on the question that you have and I'll just say that most any muzzleloader smoothbore or rifled, match-wheel-flint-percussion-or other kind of lock gun, in ANY round ball caliber from .32 to .72 is basically going to have the same ballistic path from 0 to 125yds IF they are using approximately the same range of velocities to begin with.

Do NOT use this as a loading recommendation as my figures are for an EXAMPLE: A .45cal round ball of 128gr with a 70gr charge of FFFg at 1800fps, and a .54cal round ball of 224gr with a 100gr charge of FFg at 1650fps... are BOTH going to have the same "basic trajectory" at 125yds. The difference is so piddling as not to matter to a realistic shooter. You can believe this or not, but I have seen it time and time again. And if you have shot long enough, and done as many calcutions and ballistic testing as I have then you will most likely come to the same conclusion.

The only reason to have a bigger caliber--is to have a heavier ball hitting bigger game so you get a quicker stop/kill (especially if the wounded game can fight back!). Likewise the only reason to have a smaller caliber--is to conserve lead and powder and to NOT obliterate smaller game with too large a ball.

I am NOT so silly as to suggest that a .32 is less accurate than a .45 or a .54 is a lot more powerful than a .50 cal. Those are things that are more specific to individual gun performance. But the potential for their comparative accuracy is pretty close.

Sorry about the long read, but I felt this was important.
WV_Hillbilly
 
70gr of 3fg Black under a nitro wad ,cushion wad and .610 bare ball does 1250 fps from my 42 inch barreled Jackie Brown smoothbore........Seems to shoot flat enough out to 100 yards.........Bob
 
I was taught by old guys that you work up your load to the point where you see red droplets in the bore at the muzzle. They said this was called "blooding". Then you develop your best load from there. Keep going up until you get a good group and still have the red droplets. I believe this is the indicator that one is burning powder efficiently. This is what I was taught by 70 to 90 year old guys, some of which were actually children of civil war veterans. Most were poor depression (WWI !! COOL & II Veterans) (( WWI, I thought these guys were gone until I met their kids)) era guys that used the guns to feed family. I hope this holds up to the scrutiny of this forum. I know old wives tale can sometimes be wrong. I obviosly hold these guys in high esteem. :grey: :grey: :thanks: :grey: They are gone now...
 
that is molten sulfur. i havent ever heard any anecdotes about it but it certainly could be called blooding. its red as can be.

so u say that if u have too much powder, the blood goes away? or not enuf?
 
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