How is a short starter held together?

[pacanis]

I have a ramrod for my Kentucky pistol that looks like a long short starter. Ball end with a brass stub to get the ball started and a ramrod with a brass end that is threaded so I can use it for cleaning, too.
I would like to make it a couple inches shorter.

So how are these made? Is the brass end and the ball simply glued/epoxied in place? Considering it's use, that seems like a scary thought if that is the only thing holding it together, but I don't see any pins... For all I know it's threaded and glued.

Right now I'm thinking the only way to shorten it would be to cut the ball off, then re-drill it. But what would you use to glue it back together? Acraglas? That stuff seems to permanently bond anything. Or would the tip be easier to get off and then re-attach?

Any input?
Keeping in mind that I use it for cleaning, too. So I need something so it can't pull apart.

 

[garypl]

Brass tip and ball should both be pinned. Easiest way to shorten will be to heat the brass tip to break glue bond and pull it off, shorten rod, then glue brass tip back on using epoxy and then pin it. Alternately, cut ball off, redrill ball, shorten rod, reglue rod to ball using epoxy and pin it.

Either way, both ends should be pinned to prevent the problem of separation while cleaning.

 

[pacanis]

Thanks. I'll look closer for pins...

ETA: I'm not seeing any.
Unless the short brass ball starter nub has a pin on the end of it to intersect the wood dowel. It did notice the ball is cracked where that nub is, but there looked like epoxy in the crack. Maybe that's hammered into place?

I don't see any pins in the brass tip.

 

[simonbeans]

I pin all that I make.

 

[pacanis]

The description just says waterproof glue.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/102/1/PL-6

 

[Rifleman1776]

I made many short/long starters over the years. Many of them were antler with hickory ram rod cut offs. I simply glued the rod into a drilled hole in the antler. Used several of these many times with nary a problem. Some glues might not be so effective. I used Titebond wood glue.

 

[pacanis]

Did you use any for cleaning?
It's a different kind of force using a tight fitting jag and patch and pulling it back out of the barrel.
Maybe that's why I see stuck jag threads.

 

[longcruise]

Maybe that's why I see stuck jag threads

Many a stuck jag is due to using a too large wiping/cleaning patch. The excess builds up behind the jag as it's withdrawn and jams. Another cause is too many shots without wiping combined with a wiping patch that is not wet enough.

The very first time I cleaned my first ml I was pumping water as per the TC owners manual........with a big piece of an old t shirt. No way was it coming out! I shot it full of oil for rust prevention and took it to a ml Smith I'd heard about. He removed the breech and hammered it on through.

Seems like I've learned a lot about this hobby by making dumb mistakes. This was early '70's and it was difficult to find information about muzzle loading. That's why I tell stories on myself. It might save some new guys some misery

 

[Bighorserider]

Short starters that are only use to push a ball down don't really need to be pinned. Anything that will have a jag or any accessory on it does need to be pinned. I use 6d finishing nails. Probably overkill, but I've never had one pull off.

 

[tenngun]

I made many short/long starters over the years. Many of them were antler with hickory ram rod cut offs. I simply glued the rod into a drilled hole in the antler. Used several of these many times with nary a problem. Some glues might not be so effective. I used Titebond wood glue.

If you have a long one for pistol you might, scratch that, will need it pinned if you plan to use it as a wiping stick too.
If your just starting ball and tubing down bore a tight fit works fine, as there is no pressure to pull out the stick
A single piece also works fine. My powder measure/starter

 

[beardedhorse]

Any danger of scratching bore with steel pins securing the jag or tip? I use brass pins on mine. Many commercial short starters have the ball glued to the wood rod and cheaper versions have a brass sleeve instead of a jag or tip with solid end. It is just dimpled and not pinned. The sleeve terminates with the concaved wood rod pushing the ball. The short brass stub at right angles to the rod was cheap brass (not solid), concave ended and force fit and glued. End of long rod not designed to accommodate in a cleaning jag or to clean with. I've not encountered commercially made starters with the end of the rod threaded to screw into a threaded hole in the ball. Too much work to make money.
I wouldn't go to the trouble of shortening your work/loading rod. Having the excess length could come in handy in pulling a stuck ball or patch by placing the ball end over a notched metal "claw." But if you decide to shorten, reattaching the shortened rod to the ball end is less work. Just cut off flush, sand off excess. Cut rod to length. Redrill the ball in a new spot which still allows the stub to be at right angles to the rod. You can file or saw cut shallow grooves in the end of the rod for more surface area to glue. Epoxy the rod and drill for cross pin but don't drill all the way through the ball. Cut pin to length so it bottoms out slightly below flush. Lubricate hole with slow setting glue or epoxy and the pin will drive in easier and not split the woodier bend the pin. Wipe off excess glue.
Shortening the jag end means having to turn or carve the wood rod small enough to slip the jag or tip on and re drilling for the pin in the existing hole. The jag has to be lined up perfectly to not have run out and enlarging or missing the opposite hole. It is easier if the jag is already glued on. Drill pilot holes from both ends with an undersize bit to meet in the middle. True the rod in a clamp or vise so an undersized pin comes out the opposite hole before carefully drilling with the final sized bit. Lots to go wrong even with a drill press.
Filing the ends of your pins could take a little more brass off the thickness of the jag. If you spiral cut a groove in the tip of the rod to make a better epoxy-wood joint it will slightly weaken the tip. I file several shallow right angle notches on my brass pins before tapping into the hole that has some glue. For range work I use a solid brass work rod for loading and cleaning. No danger of the threaded jags coming off. Sorry for long winded reply.

 

[pacanis]

Good idea on pinning the rod after inserting it in the ball.
Just because it isn't pinned now doesn't mean it shouldn't be done as long as I'm modifying it. Maybe I should pin the tip, too. I've got some brass pop rivets that the pin would work well.

I'd like it shorter to fit in my range box. No other reason.

 

[TDM]

Good idea on pinning the rod after inserting it in the ball.
Just because it isn't pinned now doesn't mean it shouldn't be done as long as I'm modifying it. Maybe I should pin the tip, too. I've got some brass pop rivets that the pin would work well.

I'd like it shorter to fit in my range box. No other reason.

Agree that any rod used for cleaning should be pinned, a plane, bright finishing nail works well and the ends are easily peened flat. I'm pretty sure TOW sells the threaded brass tips, might be better to order a new one to put on your shortened rod if you can't easily remove the old one. Also, if you have any pin stock left over or lying around use that for pinning as intended.

 

[pacanis]

Agree that any rod used for cleaning should be pinned, a plane, bright finishing nail works well and the ends are easily peened flat. I'm pretty sure TOW sells the threaded brass tips, might be better to order a new one to put on your shortened rod if you can't easily remove the old one. Also, if you have any pin stock left over or lying around use that for pinning as intended.

I'd just as soon use the brass pin on the end that goes in the barrel.
No actual pin stock here. I never had the need for it before.

 

[TDM]

I'd just as soon use the brass pin on the end that goes in the barrel.
No actual pin stock here. I never had the need for it before.

The brass pin will work fine and can be peened easily too.

 

[Dances With Coyotes]

I had a starter end come off from the long end. Lucky I noticed it before I shot it out. Epoxied it back on and pinned it. Small drill bit the size of my pin and chamfered the holes. Then trimmed my pin and peened it in and sanded and filed flush.