How long does it take to install a butt plate?

[aragorn]

I've been building a Jim Chambers York since Spring. I thought I could never spend as long on a single job as it took to inlet the barrel and tang, but then I did the buttplate - it seemed to take most of the summer evenings! But I'm being a bit of a perfectionist and it was worth it - it's a beautiful fit and didn't need any peening.
Now it's the nose cap. I thought that would be just a few evenings but now it's stretching into Fall ...
This is my first built and I'm having to learn a lot on the way, with the help of this forum plus the usual books, and that's adding a lot of time - but the time you put into a project is a register of your enjoyment, and if you're really getting a lot out of it then the amount of time spent is immaterial. Obviously it's different if you're doing it to make money.

 

[VAshooter]

The more time you spend cleaning up the casting the less time it takes to fit it to the stock.

 

[Hoyt]

Took me about 3 days on the Buck's Co. I just finished...long days. I thought I was going to have to give it to a kid before I finally got it right. The LOP was slip'n away..ended up with 14" just what I wanted, but I allowed for some miss-q's when I started cutting.

 

[Zonie]

It takes me about 6-8 hours. If you follow this link, you'll see why.
INSTALLING BUTTPLATE

Then again, I build for the fun and relaxation of it. I'm not is a race so taking my time isn't any great loss.

 

[Darkhorse]

I don't have the time to start and finish anything in one session. Normally a buttplate takes me several days, two to 3 hours per day.
A big reason it takes me so long is that I completely fit the the butt to the concave in the plate. When finished its sorta locked on. Even if you get off a little when drilling or countersinking, the butt plate stays where its supposed too.
Unnecessary? Maybe. Probably. Once the plates on nobody knows any different. But I do.

As for peening. Heed prior advice and use only true soft brass.
I have tried it with both the bronze/brass alloy sold as the higher quality castings by some vendors, and Iron. Both left me with dings in the buttplate. Even when using the side of a pipe. These took a lot of time to file and sand out. In neither case did the gaps fill in. I ended up taking the plate back off and finishing it with chisels.

I would love to see the correct way to peen a buttplate demonstrated.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I would love to see the correct way to peen a buttplate demonstrated.

Take the kit assembly class at Conner Prarie in a couple weeks and you'll see me pean down about a dozen of them. It's pretty easy once you've seen it done.

 

[aragorn]

I also completely fitted the butt to the concave of the plate, which is why it took so long. I drilled and countersunk the holes using my drill press, taking great care to get the countersinks even. I also drilled the screw hole into the butt extension using my drill press as I've built a jig which holds the whole rifle in different positions (also used for drilling the tang bolt and barrel pin holes). But the one moment of horror after all the work was drilling the screw hole in the lower butt using my hand drill, then trying the screw and finding it was slightly off despite all my care. I fixed this by reaming the hole slightly - luckily the bit size was only half the screw width - and then tightening it hard against the brass, and lo it fit into the countersunk hole.

 

[Stophel]

Talk about retentive! Loosen up, man! Y'all would have never survived building guns in the 18th century! The parts do NOT have to have absolute contact under the entire inlet! You people would be AGHAST to see the inletting on some old guns!!! I try to do good inletting, but working for many hours upon end just trying to get total contact on a buttplate tang is ridiculous! Besides, modern rifles are not very well inlet either. Actually, some of them are VERY crummy. (the late 19th/early 20th century was without doubt, the absolute high point in general firearms quality, in design, manufacture, fit and finish...I have seen many old Mauser rifles with absolutely perfect inletting, fantastic fit and finish...and these are military rifles!)

 

[Mike Brooks]

Great point Chris. Most all the 18th century guns I've had the Buttplates off of were very rapidly done. You'll see the initial saw cut marks, maybe a few course rasp marks , and very few chisel marks. These guys back then were bending the plate to fit the wood for the most part, not making the wood fit the buttplate. get'er close and pean 'er down.
Or as we say now, "Get 'er done.... :haha:

 

[Stophel]

The proper method of fitting a buttplate to wood is called "persuasion". Real brass is easy to persuade.

 

[Black Hand]

I've "persuaded" the end of the butt right off and had to glue it back. Use a small hammer and small taps!
Black Hand

 

[rich pierce]

I try to get really good contact for the last inch and a half at the toe, which is the only place I worry about chipping. I want to distribute whatever blows might land there somewhere other than just at the tip of the toe.

 

[aragorn]

Whatever gives you satisfaction, and we're all different. To me it seems pretty 'retentive' trying to emulate 18th c gunsmiths at this level anyway, since we can't replicate the pressures they worked under and few of us do it professionally. Perhaps the best of them, making a gun for themselves with no pressure on time, would have been 'retentive', even in areas of hidden craftsmanship only they would ever know about - something that gives private satisfaction to many artisans.

Was the sculptor of the Parthenon in Athens 'retentive' for sculpting the far side of the pediment sculptures with the same exactitude as the front, even though he knew nobody would ever see them? I think it increases our admiration for him and gives us new respect for what we can see.

 

[Stophel]

Gadzooks! :shake:

If I don't try my best to make a gun that actually looks and feels like a real 18th century gun, what's the point? Why would I do it at all? I'd be building custom Mausers and Remington 700's. (I can already hear the next comments from someone "well, you don't forge your own barrels from iron, etc" ...Ugh. )

Actually, I used to be that way. It took me THREE MONTHS to inlet my first barrel. I fitted that sucker all the way down. I had to have every last tiny bit of the sideplate bottoming out. Every last bit of the triggerguard and buttplate. Absolutely took me forever. THEN I got to see and handle and disassemble some original guns. My eyes were opened. These beautiful Masterpieces were NOT "perfect"...none of them. They were "adequately" inletted, but they did not bother with perfection. They did not have the time to fool with something that quite frankly, is not necessary. I do good inletting, but I no longer bother trying to get it "perfect".

I actually don't understand when people want a gun that is "styled" like an 18th century gun, but they must have it built and finished in a totally modern, 21st century manner. I even hear people say that folks who build guns in an 18th century manner do shoddy workmanship because their barrels are not glass-bedded and their wood surfaces are not sanded glass smooth.....

To each his own, though, and though I might say I think someone is nuts in a friendly or tongue-in-cheek manner, I never do so out of spite or hatefulness, nor would I ever make threatening or untoward comments to anyone. Nothing I say should ever be taken that way. ::

 

[aragorn]

We're cool, fatdutchman, and I take your points. It's actually an interesting discussion and I've thought about it a lot as I've slaved over inletting etc. As an archaeologist by training, I've had to concern myself a lot with what counts as an 'authentic' replica, reproduction or experiment. You can exactly replicate a known artifact, often having to make educated guesses at how it appeared when it was pristine (as some of us do with guns), or you can reproduce an artifact type that 'fits all known parameters' (as most of us do with our builds). The scope for reproduction is actually very wide because there are always oddities and eccentricities in the past which are just as authentic as the norm.

I think my point earlier was that we don't actively try to replicate errors, or reproduce an element of error overall, because that's what we see in old guns - we heave a sigh of relief because we realise they were not infallible and we accept that a similar degree of error in our own work would be within 'acceptable parameters', but we don't aim for it. At least I don't.

Time to get on now with some more inletting ...

 

[Darkhorse]

I don't really care how crappy the old guys did it or how rough the scraped finish was. They built for one reason. I build for another.
I work a high stress job and find that being anal retentive about good fits and smooth wood relaxes me and makes "IT ALL WORTHWHILE"
Anyway, by the time their all finished there will be enough "UH OHs" to please the sorriest old craftsman.

 

[aragorn]

You put it better than me, Darkhorse. It means you alone have total control over how things turn out, without someone forcing you to do it their way, unlike most of us in our day jobs.

 

[Erzulis boat]

Amen to that one Darkhorse.
I also do it for stress relief.
The duelling pistols and most rifles in my collection (originals) have crazy perfect inletting, it is just a matter of quality.
And, as you stated, there will be plenty of little mistakes to go around!

 

[Mike Brooks]

I also do it for stress relief.

Gosh, the Doc just gave me pills for stress related to my job....guess what my job is? :haha:

 

[Stophel]

Gun building for stress relief! You gotta be kidding!!! Nothing can give me fits more than working on a gun!

As soon as I'm done here, I have to go out and make, and install, and inlet 3 more barrel tenons. Absolutely the MOST mind numbing, excruciating bit of pure, abject tedium imagineable. I'll be crying by the time I'm done. Seems to take FOREVER.