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How long to make a rifle back in 1800?

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All you history buffs out there: What do your resources tell you about how long it would take a private gun maker back in 1800 to: Make a flintlock lock, make furniture, (patchbox, nose cap, trigger guard, etc) make a barrel, triggers, sights, and of course put it all together? It amazes me as to what was done back then with no electricity, and poor lighting.
Flintlocklar
 
In the 1800s most gunmakers were buying barrels and locks and apprentices were doing the grunt work one might be inletting locks another would be sawing out the blank or inletting the barrel in the roughed out stock.
 
The latest American Rifleman magazine deals with the Williamsburg gunsmiths, and they say it takes 400 hours to completely build a rifle from scratch. That's with a master and an apprentice.
 
Well, according to the OP, I don't see any shortcuts if the gunsmith from the 1800s as they did the same process as the Williamsburg smiths. Same process, total building from scratch, same tools. No mention in the OP for imported barrels and locks.
 
Well, according to the OP, I don't see any shortcuts if the gunsmith from the 1800s as they did the same process as the Williamsburg smiths. Same process, total building from scratch, same tools. No mention in the OP for imported barrels and locks.
My point being 1800s gunsmiths were buying barrels and locks (documented) as well as purchasing roughed out stocks. Heck in the 1800s Eli Whitney was mass producing gunstocks and complete guns with duplicating equipment. I agree that 400 hrs might be chewed up if you were making from scratch but I don't see anyone in the 1800s going from scratch. We, or some of us today may do it as a curiosity exercise.
I had a friend that used to sell gun kits; a piece of brass, a piece of iron and a a few maple seeds, I never bought one but I bet it took a while longer than 400hrs. to finish and that was with 20th century tools
 
I'm sure you're right about assembling parts in 1800, but that's not what the OP asked. He asked how long it would take to make one from scratch.
 
Assembling from scratch in the 1800s? That's easy same as today! Time it takes is equal to the skill and experience of the builder if we are not counting finishes, available components or updated tools. It takes two people at least 40 hrs to forge a barrel, 12 hrs to rifle (unless you have to build a rifling bench) 6-8 hrs to rough out a stock from a plank (if you don't have to cut the plank from a log) then 10 hrs to inlet barrel, at least 16 hrs to make a lock (assuming you have tumbler mills and spring stock) another 8 hrs to make thimbles, triggerguard, buttplate, sideplate from sheetstock or add another 8 hrs if you are casting instead of forming then 24 hours to inlet parts, cut dovetails install sights (and make them)
another 12 hrs to scrape finish the stock, 4hrs to apply acid heat and burnish the finish, 4 hrs to apply and rub down and varnish the stock (add another 2 hrs if you have to make your varnish) If you are going to add engraving and or carving add more time depending on how detailed.
Now keep in mind that there are no electric lights to be used so this will slow down your build having only daylight hours to work. This is why gunsmiths have used apprentices and components put together by other guilds since the 1600s.
As an exercise or as a teaching tool (Colonial Williamsburg) building completely from scratch is not something a "how much time" question is difficult to answer truthfully. A lot of people will guess but until you have done it or at least parts of it it's all supposition.
 
In the 1800s most gunmakers were buying barrels and locks and apprentices were doing the grunt work one might be inletting locks another would be sawing out the blank or inletting the barrel in the roughed out stock.

Gunmakers in the 1760s and 1770s were also using imported locks from England and Germany and buying barrel blanks according to the records in the Moravian archives for Bethlehem and Christian's Spring gun shops. See Robert Lienemann's two books on Moravian Gunmaking.

Conversely, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. documented in The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History that the Hawken brothers were making some of their own barrels and locks in the 1830s and 1840s.

The question is as appropriate for the early 1800s as it is for the late Colonial period and the answer would be about the same.

I agree that most gunmakers had an apprentice or two and some of the larger shops had one to several journeymen working for them, but if you add up each of their time spent on each part of the gun, you get about the same answer as a single gunmaker doing it all.

I haven't read the article in the latest American Rifleman magazine about the Williamsburg gunsmiths, but I would go with their estimate to completely build a rifle from scratch.

On the other hand, Bob Lienemann had an interest in plain rifles and in his research on the Moravian gunmakers noted that they made rifles for different price points. He was curious as to how quickly an experience gunstocker like master gunmaker Jack Brooks could stock a plain unadorned rifle. After Jack built one, he commissioned several other noted gunmakers to do something similar. He wrote an article about it that was published in the summer 2017 issue of CLA’s American Tradition magazine titled “3 Day Longrifles” – an example of a rifle built and finished in 3 days.

On another forum, Lienemann summarized Jack Brooks' efforts like this.
RP Lienemann-ALR Forum said:
So in spring 1995 I talked Jack into stocking a plain ca 1780 Lancaster style smooth rifle, where we would document the work and keep track of his time. Day one began with a maple plank, custom lock and barrel, sand cast mounts and brass and iron sheet. First morning the stock was cut to a pattern, breechplug fitted and tang shaped, and the barrel with plug inlet with gouge, chisel and scraper in 4-5 hours. Stock was trimmed, flipped and ramrod groove established, the ramrod hole drilled, barrel lugs installed and barrel pinned in place. Lock panels were established and the lock inlet as a unit without disassembly, lock bolts drilled and tapped, trigger plate made and inlet and the tang bolt installed. End of day one had the lock, stock and barrel together but no trigger - 10 hours work with lunch.

Day two – trigger made, inlet and pinned, layout lines with castoff, buttplate filed up and installed. Trigger guard casting filed up and installed, a sideplate sketched, cut, inlet and lock bolts finished. Ramrod pipes were formed, filed and inlet – forward pipes while stock in square, and entry pipe later when stock was shaped. Sling swivels made and stock shaping began with chisels, plane and rasps from square to final shape. Day two ended with the rifle mostly assembled and stock shaped from lock back – another 10 hour day.

Day three – shaped the forend, made and installed a two piece nosecap and ramrod entry pipe, front and rear sights made and installed. Touchhole was drilled and tapered, and barrel signed with maker’s name and year. Homemade Aquafortis applied and heated, then linseed oil rubbed on. A tapered ramrod of hickory was made with a reversible worm and iron tip pinned at breech end, stained and oiled. About midday on the 3rd day, the rifle was ready for the customer. We spent a bit of time boning the linseed oil into the stock and reviewing the project – photos of the project are included in the American Tradition article. Barrel and lock were left white as usual and the brass mounts burnished. A ca 1780’s Lancaster rifle from a blank and castings in two and a half days.

I'm borrowing a few of Lienemann's photos of the "3 day rifle" that Jack built.
3-day-full-lock-email.jpg

3-day-left-34-email.jpg

3-day-lock-and-wrist-email.jpg


Given an assembled lock, finished barrel, sand cast butt plate and trigger guard, brass sheet, and iron sheet and bar, it took roughly 25 hours to get to a finished rifle.

That leaves 375 hours to make the barrel (forge, file, ream, and rifle), make the lock (forge, file, mill, drill, tap and heat treat), and sand cast the brass hardware if all done by the gunsmith and apprentice like at Williamsburg.

Phil
 
Phil,
I agree wholeheartedly, I assembled a Jim Kibler SMR for a customer in six hours and spent another eight on finishes. It all depends on components and skills.
I was corrected for not assuming that in the 1800s a gunsmith would build a gun like Wallace Gustler re-enacted at Williamsburg. His skills are amazing and have refined more since the 60s and I am sure he would not consider "scratch built" to be a viable or reasonable use of time.
 
Very few here are interested in the 19th century guns. Most here reenact or study the 18th century.

No! That's not correct at all.
If they had it in the 18th century it likely continued for at least another 50 years, half way into the 19th century and encompassing the timeline of the forum.
Once the industrial revolution got up to full speed in the 19th century things changed very rapidly.
The 19th century includes everything from flintlocks to machineguns.
 
We can only speculate why some gunmakers made their own barrels and locks at times and at other times purchased locks and barrels ready made. It is obvious from surviving documents and guns that they did, but not why.

Economics must have played a key roll, but supply issues were dominate at times, too. During the AWI and the War of 1812, England cut off imports to America. Moravian records show that the Christian's Spring gun shop anticipated hostilities and was stocking up on English gun locks prior to the outbreak. Other gunmakers likely did the same. At some point, locks had to be made in America, though. For nearly a decade after the AWI, England restricted the export of guns and gun parts to America. These restrictions were relaxed in the 1790s.

American gunmakers, when they signed their work, typically signed the barrel. English gunmakers typically signed the lock, and on occasion, signed both the lock and the barrel. There are a few American made guns that are signed on both the barrel and the lock. This likely indicates the gunmaker made the lock. There are a couple of Jacob Dickert rifles that are marked this way: #68 in RCA and #9 in The Lancaster Long Rifle by Hornberger & Kolar. It is assumed that Dickert made the locks on these rifles.

There are some J&S Hawken and S Hawken rifles that are marked on both the barrel and the lock. The Smithsonian Hawken and the Kennett Hawken are two that are marked "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" on both the barrel and the lock. The locks on these two rifles have very similar internals and were probably made in the Hawken shop. One was originally flint, which may help explain why it was made by Hawken since flintlocks were hard to come by in the 1850s. In 1894, Horace Kephart purchased a NOS Hawken rifle from William Albright's store. The rifle was unmarked, so Kephart took it to an old Hawken employee named Charles Siever to see if he could authenticate it. Siever removed the lock, studied it closely, and declared to Kephart. "Yah, dot is chenuine Hawken rifle. I make dot lock, py golly, mineself, more as forty year ago."

Phil
 
Personally I don't believe for a minute that it took 400 hours to build a typical rifle back in the day (and I really don't care about the precise century since we are talking about all components made from scratch). I think the majority of people simply don't understand or appreciate how much faster and more precise a lot of tradesmen worked back then. Nor how hard they could work. Case in point we had an old school blacksmith in town back when I was just a kid. He was old then and this was likely 55 years ago. He could put a new point on a harrow tooth in 30 seconds and shoe a horse in under half an hour. I have seen modern blacksmiths take far longer to do these simple tasks. Not reflecting poorly on the modern blacksmith, they just don't have the same incentives to work quickly. That said I do believe apprentices were likely very common as well and apprentices were worked like dogs back then. The same thing applied to my Dad who would have been 105 this year. He grew up with horses and pitchforks, stooks and loose hay. What he could do with a pitchfork and loose hay was almost miraculous. You never see that kind of skill level with these menial tasks. He could also work flat out for 10-12 hours a day with pauses only for meal breaks. I have never seen men since my Dad's generation who could work so hard all day long. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think a gun maker even back then could support himself building only 5-8 rifles a year.
 
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