How long was percussion used?

[garra]

Bought an old rifle, purported to be used in the civil war, but I am beginning to have doubts.
From what I can figure out, it is French about 72 caliber, looks military from the build. Has no rear sight, but a hole in front where a bead was in place. Percussion cap comes in at the top right of the back of barrel. I have it soaking in Kroll right now, hoping to get the old nipple out. Did find a date on bottom of barrel of 98, another of 15 on a couple of parts. (I think the 15 is an assy number, found it on the stock too) I was hoping to fire this as a 72 cal. ball shooter, barrel looks surprising well inside and out.

thanks,

 

[nwtradegun]

sounds like a conversion to perc. it was used 1820- today.

 

[Shine]

.72 I bet it is an Austrian Lorenz.

 

[bpd303]

hotoSmile:

 

[Grandpa Ron]

How long percussion was used depend on the location and the person. In the more remote areas of this country, well up to WW II. In most of the country, cartridge was firmly in vogue by the early 1900’s.

Of course percussion never really died; it just switched to us hobby shooters. :wink:

 

[garra]

I guess I was referring to use in the military weapons, guess I wasn't clear enough. :bow:

I did find another date on this one, a 47, so it could be from 1847. Finally got the nipple out, but it's threads are presenting another problem, they are a non-standard size.

Best I can figure out it is about 8.2mm by 1.25 pitch. A 5/16 is too small as well as the standard 8mm nipples, they will just flop in the hole. Only thing I can think of is to use the old nipple as a bush, drill out the center and tap it to a 6mm-1.0 size. I can at least get a nipple for that one.
Does anyone carry over sized nipples in 8mm like they do the 1/4-28 nipples??

 

[Wes/Tex]

.72 I bet it is an Austrian Lorenz.

Or a Prussian Potsdam, both were .72s. Picture will tell all though! In the meantime...any lock markings, barrel markings or stampings on butt plate or tang?

 

[Britsmoothy]

I guess I was referring to use in the military weapons, guess I wasn't clear enough. :bow:

I did find another date on this one, a 47, so it could be from 1847. Finally got the nipple out, but it's threads are presenting another problem, they are a non-standard size.

Best I can figure out it is about 8.2mm by 1.25 pitch. A 5/16 is too small as well as the standard 8mm nipples, they will just flop in the hole. Only thing I can think of is to use the old nipple as a bush, drill out the center and tap it to a 6mm-1.0 size. I can at least get a nipple for that one.
Does anyone carry over sized nipples in 8mm like they do the 1/4-28 nipples??

I recently attempted this but there is nothing left after threading. What I ended up doing is turning down the threads of a 6mm nipple to 5mm and fit this in the larger nipple held in by tig welding and then case harden the nipple again. Turned out good.

B.

 

[garra]

Only marking are in bottom of barrel. there is a R2 on inside of lock, nothing else. A D on tang.
The 15 is on tang, stock trigger guard.

Has the French screws on it, flat with 2 pin holes only accessed by armorer.

 

[garra]

Oh no :cursing: My OD on the nipple is .328, figure using a .199 drill so I would have .129 worth of meat so to speak. That would leave a 1/16 (.062) wall for the threads, so I guess that method is out.
I may have been better off just cutting the top off and tapping it when it was stuck.

I do have heli-coils in 6-1.0mm maybe I can insert one of those in the hole. I would have to grind the tap to a bottoming style, worth investigating.

thanks for the heads up!!!

 

[thatoneguy82]

I think TOTW will make nipples for uncommon threads, not sure what that would cost but it would be a lot easier than; drilling, welding, case hardening, or heli-coiling your antique. That way you could always drop the old nipple back in and put it back to 100% original.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Dixie has a great selection of nipples as well. And they specialize in older rifles :idunno:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Only marking are in bottom of barrel. there is a R2 on inside of lock, nothing else. A D on tang.
The 15 is on tang, stock trigger guard.

Has the French screws on it, flat with 2 pin holes only accessed by armorer.

A picture would help determine what you have.

With the slightly "over-sized" nipple you describe and the screw with two holes rather than a slot it does sound French, their muskets were slightly over .70 caliber. Is the lock a back action or standard pattern? With their M1840 line they changed to lock to back action with the rear of the lock secured by screw with the two holes.

The French muskets of all patterns were exceptionally well designed, well built and strong. S&S Firearms used to carry the original French musket nipples so check with them, but it sounds like you have blown that opportunity by trying to drill it out and use a metric nipple, the French nipple was not metric but, IIRC, had a Whitworth thread. For heaven's sake, don't try to use a helicoil.

 

[Rifleman1776]

.72 I bet it is an Austrian Lorenz.

I had an Austrian CW rifled musket in .72. Don't know anything about the "Lorenz" part. Mine had a snail on the Nock breech. Shot fine but punishing at both ends. Wish I had kept it.

 

[garra]

thanks I will check with S&S. I did get the original to work. I drilled it out to .199, checked the OD of the 6mm tap and it was .235, so I had .100 left. Started the tap in the lathe, then moved it to the rifle and used the tap to seat it and continued to cut the treads. Had to knock the end of the tap off as I went down in order to make it a bottoming style. Seemed to be OK for now, will see what S&S has to offer.

Heli coil wouldn't work, hole is too big for a 6mm one. As far as the other question it is a standard style lock, built like a tank, really heavy duty, all parts are very wide and robust.

Beginging to believe it is from civil war, as it appears it hasn't been cleaned since new. I have been scrubbing it, did the bucket and soap, even filled the barrel with simple green and scrubbed it with a 10 gauge bore brush, Must have gone through a couple hundred patched and I am still getting dark brown patches.



regards,

gg

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Depending on the shape of the breach I would tap it to a common thread, if I could not find an exact replacement.

I do not know exactly when the military switched to cartridges but we do know that many Civil War muskets were converted to trap doors by the 1870's.

During the war many Northern soldiers were issued Spencer's etc.

 

[crockett]

Are there any stamps from inspectors? I know most British guns were stamped but not sure on other countries. I'm not that knowledgeable on this but I think the various stamp marks of the inspectors are compared. The stock stamp inspector was active say 1820 to 1830, the barrel stamp inspector 1827 to 1840, and the lock inspector from say 1818 to 1828, so the only way all three stamps could be on the firearm is if it was inspected (made) in 1828. That's my very rough notion of how dating is done.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Actually, rumor has it some are still used today. :shocked2: :grin:

 

[garra]

Yes there a quite a few marks on the bottom of the barrel, most interesting one looks like an stylized x with a circle touching the top with 3 dots spaced across the circle. Many numbers letters and symbols I can't make out. made a mistake on the lock it is a back action style with the hammer on the front portion. I did find some pictures that look like this rifle as a 1842 French smooth bore. I can see the barrel was cut at some point as the cut isn't square, but there is a hole for bead sight. which I am not sure if that is correct. No rear sight.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Post a photo of the gun and proof marks and it will answer a lot of questions.

Sounds like a fun project to me.