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How Much Energy For Hunting Load ?
- Thread starter Short Arm
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I can't give you any Velocities or Ft Pound numbers - but I can tell you that I have killed 23 Deer with my .54 Harpers Ferry (Getz Bbl - 1/66 twist) at ranges up to 75 yds, using 85 to 90 grs 3F w/patched Round Ball, and that I shot clean through most of them...
Eric
Eric
hanshi
Cannon
The only deer I ever killed with a .54 prb was killed with a US M1841 "Mississippi" rifle using a 225 grain lead ball and 110 grains of 3F. The velocity of that load from the 33" barrel was 1735fps and the muzzle energy was 1494 foot pounds. This is way more than is needed to kill a deer. A more reasonable load giving 1400fps would yield 979 foot pounds of ME. At 1500fps (easily obtained) ML would be 1125ftlbs. This may give you some perspective. Just remember prb energy is not what kills it is the large soft lead ball doing great damage.
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One of my hunting pards uses 65 grains of 2f in his 54. I've watched him take several deer out to 75 and a little beyond. Helped him dress the deer too, and we never recovered a ball. Through and through penetration.
I use 90 grains of 3f shooting at the same ranges.
There's no right and wrong in this, except the opinion of your rifle. He shoots 65 because the rifle is really accurate with it. I shoot 90 because my rifle is really accurate with it.
Well place shots kill deer. Energy figures sell shooting products, as was always intended.
I use 90 grains of 3f shooting at the same ranges.
There's no right and wrong in this, except the opinion of your rifle. He shoots 65 because the rifle is really accurate with it. I shoot 90 because my rifle is really accurate with it.
Well place shots kill deer. Energy figures sell shooting products, as was always intended.
I would look to a different approach using PRB as the ball performs much diferently than a modern bullet I have always felt the best way to work up a load is to start with 1 1/2 times the cal in powder charge ie a .50 bore would use 75 gr. of powder and the adjust up or down to get the best accuracy but not to go below bore size ie 50 gr for a .50 and for range a rule of thumb I use is .50 and under 75 yds and over .50 bore out to 100 yds, this is just a rule of thumb and more powder the better if accuracy it not sacrificed, but typical the 1 1/2 range +/- 10 gr will be accurate and kill well at the given ranges open sights will put a new perspective on long shots, the main consideration is that modern ballistics and any "rules" applied to killing game really do not fit in the ML world, like with archery ftb lbs does not mean much. there are those who will dissagree, but the legions will swoop down like birds of prey to cleanse the Earth of the spreading and thinking of wrongfull ML lore.
The reason for the ? Shooting 70gr. at 50 yards. was all over the target. I drop down to 55gr. and it was right on every time."1 1/2 group on the x". I'm thinking this load could be a little low. Will need a little more bench time.
According to The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual, a Lyman GP .54 at a 100 yards:
50ffg velocity 906 fps energy 419 flb's
60ffg velocity 964 fps energy 475 flb's
70ffg velocity 1032 fps energy 544 flb's
80ffg velocity 1115 fps energy 635 flb's
90ffg velocity 1138 fps energy 662 flb's
100ffg velocity 1131 fps energy 653 flb's
110ffg velocity 1163 fps energy 691 flb's
120ffg velocity 1189 fps energy 722 flb's
.535 round ball, .015 pillow ticking patch. I don't know which rifle you have but mebbe this will help......Alvin
50ffg velocity 906 fps energy 419 flb's
60ffg velocity 964 fps energy 475 flb's
70ffg velocity 1032 fps energy 544 flb's
80ffg velocity 1115 fps energy 635 flb's
90ffg velocity 1138 fps energy 662 flb's
100ffg velocity 1131 fps energy 653 flb's
110ffg velocity 1163 fps energy 691 flb's
120ffg velocity 1189 fps energy 722 flb's
.535 round ball, .015 pillow ticking patch. I don't know which rifle you have but mebbe this will help......Alvin
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hanshi
Cannon
Well place shots kill deer. Energy figures sell shooting products, as was always intended. [/quote]
So very true but it seems nobody but us ball shooters understand that. :idunno:
So very true but it seems nobody but us ball shooters understand that. :idunno:
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hanshi said:
Agreed. There's a small (very small) cadre of traditional BP cartridge revolver hunters who believe, too. I've whapped too many deer to count at +/- 50 yards with 44 Special and 45 Colt bullets at 240-250 grains and 750fps MV. Never a loss and never a followup shot.
A 230 grain 54 caliber ball at 1000fps? Talk about magnum ballistics!!!!!! :rotf:
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Agreed, and that was good. But what we're pointing out is that shot placement is key. And he needed to know that along with "interpretation" of the numbers from people other than salesmen. That's what this great place is all about- helping make sense of the stuff you hear.
paulvallandigham
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PLEASE, STOP! using modern ballistics information when measuring the effectiveness of Black Powder guns shooting Lead Balls. It simply is NOT THE SAME THING!
A lead ball is designed to expand at much slower velocities and Transmit that energy to the animal you shoot efficiently, so as to cause maximum shock effect to the organs and nervous system.
A .54 cal. Ball is more than 1/2 oz. of lead! and it begins at a diameter than many center fire rifle cartridges intended for taking deer can never expand enough to reach that diameter. On impact, its not unusual for a .54 caliber ball to expand to .65 or larger caliber, leaving a tremendous hole in the internal organs of a deer.
Are you beginning to trust us when we tell you that Foot Pounds of Energy tell you NOTHING about the effectiveness of a lead Round Ball???
Some reloading manuals provide the kind of information you are seeking, but even having the ft. lbs. of energy figures doesn't tell you how effective these larger caliber guns are for killing deer. ( Check Lyman's Black Powder Handbook, 2nd. Edition.) A lead Round ball has such a poor Ballistics Coefficient, that regardless of caliber, its still a 100 yd. and under projectile. That is why we use iron sights on the guns- not SCOPES!There is no reason to use a scope on a gun to hunt an animal where most shots are taken at ranges under 50 yards!( not 100 yds.) :shocked2:
You are new to this sport- its obvious-- and like so many of us, you gained a lot of knowledge shooting suppository guns in various calibers. Put all that aside, and learn a different way of looking at calibers and their effectiveness at killing game.
Speed is Not important at the short ranges we shoot.
The weight of the ball controls how much penetration you will get in flesh and bone. Very few deer shot broadside through the chest with any .54 load see the ball remain inside the body at all. Most such balls pass thru and are not recovered by the hunter.
What is important when hunting with these guns is learning woodsmanship- how to move quietly, and SIT quietly in the woods and on the edges of fields. Look for Funnels where deer move through at dawn or dusk moving from bedding areas to feeding areas, and back again. Most deer learn quickly to move about and feed at night, during deer seasons, so you see them either at first or last light. Only when someone spooks deer from their day beds will you see deer during the rest of daylight hours. If you are fortunate to hunt during the rut, bucks will be out moving about looking for does at any time of the day. But, if rut is over, everything changes. Sometimes approaching storms move deer during daylight, but that involves learning to read the weather as it changes, and knowing which weather changes cause the deer to move for thicker cover. Its usually the kind of weather where most hunters are wanting to get in out of the woods, too. :shocked2: The danger of hypothermia is real, so if you don't have the right clothing, get some place warm and dry, and chalk it up to a "learning experience". BTDT. :surrender:
High speed, modern bullets kill with a Secondary wound channel created by the vacuum that passes behind the bullet as it zips through flesh and blood. The Primary wound channel remains only as large as the diameter of the bullet, and if it expands some, then that diameter. But, most .270-.30 caliber rifle bullets rarely can expand larger than .45 caliber.
Slower, Lead ball, and bullet guns kill with a LARGE PRIMARY wound channel, punching a huge hole in the hide going in, and another huge hole- often much bigger- going out. That lets a lot of air in and a lot of blood out in a hurry. Death is by shock, and/or hemorrhage, that causes a sudden reduction in Blood pressure and deprives the brain of oxygen it needs to remain viable. Its extremely rare to find any lead bullet or lead round ball creating a secondary wound channel- because its next to impossible to get the ball going that fast using Black Powder or equivalent propellants.
Traditional Sidelock Muzzleloaders were not designed to shoot heavy bullets at high speeds. Today's replicas are built of quality materials, but the ignition system for both flintlock and percussion guns is still the "weak link". There are now replica black Powder Cartridge rifles that are DESIGNED to take the kinds of pressure large heavy bullets generate, but that is a different game altogether. We do have people shooting heavy bench rifles, shooting large bullets, with heavy powder charges, at long ranges, but the largest "slug" gun I have ever heard about fired a 1760 grains, 2-piece paper patched bullet at under the speed of sound, to produce tiny groups at 500 yds. and beyond. The owner/maker of the gun told me he specifically did not want to shoot his bullets faster than the speed of sound because of all the buffeting that the air does to his bullet in flight as it slows down below the SOS, opening up his groups. He shot that monster in the open class, where scope sights were the norm. He uses a false muzzle to seat the bullets into the barrel, and has an underhammer action, using a special device to fire a modern pistol primer to ignite a huge charge of FFFg powder. He doesn't hunt deer with that gun, and is much more capable of telling us why those kind of ballistics simply are not possible in shoulder fired guns you would take hunting, than I am. When he could not find a scope made on the market that could withstand the recoil forces of his gun, he designed his own scope, and scope mount, and eventually began producing scopes that started at 36 x and went on up to 46 power. Some of his scopes have found their way to the sand piles, and are being used by U.S. Snipers on their heavy .50 caliber sniper rifles. He has the engineering background, and machining skills to understand all of this.
I just listen when he speaks. :shocked2: :bow: :grin:
A lead ball is designed to expand at much slower velocities and Transmit that energy to the animal you shoot efficiently, so as to cause maximum shock effect to the organs and nervous system.
A .54 cal. Ball is more than 1/2 oz. of lead! and it begins at a diameter than many center fire rifle cartridges intended for taking deer can never expand enough to reach that diameter. On impact, its not unusual for a .54 caliber ball to expand to .65 or larger caliber, leaving a tremendous hole in the internal organs of a deer.
Are you beginning to trust us when we tell you that Foot Pounds of Energy tell you NOTHING about the effectiveness of a lead Round Ball???
Some reloading manuals provide the kind of information you are seeking, but even having the ft. lbs. of energy figures doesn't tell you how effective these larger caliber guns are for killing deer. ( Check Lyman's Black Powder Handbook, 2nd. Edition.) A lead Round ball has such a poor Ballistics Coefficient, that regardless of caliber, its still a 100 yd. and under projectile. That is why we use iron sights on the guns- not SCOPES!There is no reason to use a scope on a gun to hunt an animal where most shots are taken at ranges under 50 yards!( not 100 yds.) :shocked2:
You are new to this sport- its obvious-- and like so many of us, you gained a lot of knowledge shooting suppository guns in various calibers. Put all that aside, and learn a different way of looking at calibers and their effectiveness at killing game.
Speed is Not important at the short ranges we shoot.
The weight of the ball controls how much penetration you will get in flesh and bone. Very few deer shot broadside through the chest with any .54 load see the ball remain inside the body at all. Most such balls pass thru and are not recovered by the hunter.
What is important when hunting with these guns is learning woodsmanship- how to move quietly, and SIT quietly in the woods and on the edges of fields. Look for Funnels where deer move through at dawn or dusk moving from bedding areas to feeding areas, and back again. Most deer learn quickly to move about and feed at night, during deer seasons, so you see them either at first or last light. Only when someone spooks deer from their day beds will you see deer during the rest of daylight hours. If you are fortunate to hunt during the rut, bucks will be out moving about looking for does at any time of the day. But, if rut is over, everything changes. Sometimes approaching storms move deer during daylight, but that involves learning to read the weather as it changes, and knowing which weather changes cause the deer to move for thicker cover. Its usually the kind of weather where most hunters are wanting to get in out of the woods, too. :shocked2: The danger of hypothermia is real, so if you don't have the right clothing, get some place warm and dry, and chalk it up to a "learning experience". BTDT. :surrender:
High speed, modern bullets kill with a Secondary wound channel created by the vacuum that passes behind the bullet as it zips through flesh and blood. The Primary wound channel remains only as large as the diameter of the bullet, and if it expands some, then that diameter. But, most .270-.30 caliber rifle bullets rarely can expand larger than .45 caliber.
Slower, Lead ball, and bullet guns kill with a LARGE PRIMARY wound channel, punching a huge hole in the hide going in, and another huge hole- often much bigger- going out. That lets a lot of air in and a lot of blood out in a hurry. Death is by shock, and/or hemorrhage, that causes a sudden reduction in Blood pressure and deprives the brain of oxygen it needs to remain viable. Its extremely rare to find any lead bullet or lead round ball creating a secondary wound channel- because its next to impossible to get the ball going that fast using Black Powder or equivalent propellants.
Traditional Sidelock Muzzleloaders were not designed to shoot heavy bullets at high speeds. Today's replicas are built of quality materials, but the ignition system for both flintlock and percussion guns is still the "weak link". There are now replica black Powder Cartridge rifles that are DESIGNED to take the kinds of pressure large heavy bullets generate, but that is a different game altogether. We do have people shooting heavy bench rifles, shooting large bullets, with heavy powder charges, at long ranges, but the largest "slug" gun I have ever heard about fired a 1760 grains, 2-piece paper patched bullet at under the speed of sound, to produce tiny groups at 500 yds. and beyond. The owner/maker of the gun told me he specifically did not want to shoot his bullets faster than the speed of sound because of all the buffeting that the air does to his bullet in flight as it slows down below the SOS, opening up his groups. He shot that monster in the open class, where scope sights were the norm. He uses a false muzzle to seat the bullets into the barrel, and has an underhammer action, using a special device to fire a modern pistol primer to ignite a huge charge of FFFg powder. He doesn't hunt deer with that gun, and is much more capable of telling us why those kind of ballistics simply are not possible in shoulder fired guns you would take hunting, than I am. When he could not find a scope made on the market that could withstand the recoil forces of his gun, he designed his own scope, and scope mount, and eventually began producing scopes that started at 36 x and went on up to 46 power. Some of his scopes have found their way to the sand piles, and are being used by U.S. Snipers on their heavy .50 caliber sniper rifles. He has the engineering background, and machining skills to understand all of this.
I just listen when he speaks. :shocked2: :bow: :grin:
"Will need a little more bench time."
That will be the key as will different patch and ball combos and 3f/2f powder often there are two loads that hit home a high one and a lower one 85gr 3f might put the balls onto of each other it will come to you with time and trial and error this is the only way to find what you need, but in general at ranges I can use primitive sights the cal size in grains as a minimum should take Deer, more is better as you cam probably use a point blank sighting method where as you can hold the same point from the muzzle to 100 yds and hit either right on or a bit high or low but all in the kill zone, lighter oads ofetn make this undoable.
That will be the key as will different patch and ball combos and 3f/2f powder often there are two loads that hit home a high one and a lower one 85gr 3f might put the balls onto of each other it will come to you with time and trial and error this is the only way to find what you need, but in general at ranges I can use primitive sights the cal size in grains as a minimum should take Deer, more is better as you cam probably use a point blank sighting method where as you can hold the same point from the muzzle to 100 yds and hit either right on or a bit high or low but all in the kill zone, lighter oads ofetn make this undoable.
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Short Arm said:
Depends...
What are you hunting???
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Short Arm said:
What powder are you using???
What patch material???
What lube???
What did the patches look like after shooting???
Good groups with lower powder charges that fall apart with heaview charges often mean patch/lube failure or using the wrong powder...
hanshi
Cannon
I'll chime in one last time that you have seen numbers like you were looking for; now forget them. I have a long history of CF loading and shooting and believe me I chronographed most every load I came up with. But I haven't done that with muzzleloaders. I've been shooting MLs for 45 years and in that time have only chronographed 3 or 4 in all that time. Why? well, because speed is not an issue with front loaders. A round ball is as different from a modern bullet as a modern bullet is from an arrow.
As Bruce Lee said, "empty your cup". I know nothing about the speed of most of my round ball loads. For the most part I don't want to know. I just want the most accurate load I can find that has enough power for the game I am taking. With a round ball, more powder means a larger ball, not a faster one. Few people agree on much of anything around here, but one thing about all of us agree on is how prb takes game.
Go for an accurate load with a legal size ball and that's all you need. Forget about bean fields and hunt the brush & woods; get close. There's plenty of help on this forum to get you up and running. Need starting load advice? Just ask. In the final analysis, we're all here to help. Make good smoke. :thumbsup:
As Bruce Lee said, "empty your cup". I know nothing about the speed of most of my round ball loads. For the most part I don't want to know. I just want the most accurate load I can find that has enough power for the game I am taking. With a round ball, more powder means a larger ball, not a faster one. Few people agree on much of anything around here, but one thing about all of us agree on is how prb takes game.
Go for an accurate load with a legal size ball and that's all you need. Forget about bean fields and hunt the brush & woods; get close. There's plenty of help on this forum to get you up and running. Need starting load advice? Just ask. In the final analysis, we're all here to help. Make good smoke. :thumbsup:
Speaking only for myself from my own woods deer hunting experiences, with all but a couple shots at 50yds or less, I've become comfortable with .54cal loads using powder charges in the 100grns range (100grns 2F or 90grns 3f).nmdd said:
Those powder charges in my .54cals...like the load data listed above...have produced a good blend of velocity, trajectory, accuracy, and energy (power/penetration).
The smallest PRB powder charge I use for deer hunting in .45/.50/.54cals is 90grns Goex 3F.
And I use basically the same loads in the larger volume bores with 100grns 2F in the .58cal, 110grns 2F in the .62cal.
Shortarm, you can blend together both sets of information given here for your conclusions...you have some proven published load data numbers, and you have some proven practical examples as well.
Regardless of how you make your decision, the 3 strings of numbers posted for a .54cal above will take deer all day long at 75yds...so pick one, get her dialed in, and go punch some tags this fall.
:thumbsup:
