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How much obturation?

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jtmattison

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Does anyone have evidence of how much a roundball obturates upon firing?

I just cast up some RB with a new mold and when I mic'd them they are out-of-round by about .005.

I figure it can't really matter much since they obturate anyway.

I was just wondering how much a ball really deforms when it is fired.

HD
 
Huntin Dawg said:
Does anyone have evidence of how much a roundball obturates upon firing?

I just cast up some RB with a new mold and when I mic'd them they are out-of-round by about .005.

I figure it can't really matter much since they obturate anyway.

I was just wondering how much a ball really deforms when it is fired.

HD

Now, this is just my opinion...no science to back it up...but at black powder power levels, I don't believe they do or if they do it's not measurable.

Of the few balls I've recovered from deer and/or water jugs doing home made penetration tests, I've looked for but never found any rifling marks on them.

I use max/near-max powder charges for hunting, nominal size balls (.440/.490/.530/.570) and .018" lubed pillow ticking patches.

:shocked2:
 
But you will find the pattern weave of the patch. I don't believe they obturate either. They don't really need to be round anyway.
 
Hmmm... could this be reason that others posting on the earlier thread on hard lead roundballs weren't suffering any major loss of accuracy? :hmm: No obturation on roundballs would mean that soft lead MIGHT not be necessary... though I know in my .58 musket with minies, hard lead doesn't work worth a hoot!

Just a thought... no data to say yea or nay on my part.

M
 
It's my experiance that roundballs I pick up that have hit the 3 conveyor belt baffle I use for target backdrops that the roundballs look exactly like m&m's. Round and with a bulge on both sides, in the middle. Thus no obturation!
 
marmot said:
"...though I know in my .58 musket with minies, hard lead doesn't work worth a hoot..."
In the musket, I believe the lead skirt has to be soft enough to expand into the rifling.

With the patched ball, it's my belief that it rides down the lands like a train on tracks, with the excess folds of patch material wedged down into the grooves doing the steering

:hmm:
 
I believe they do "bump up" and that black powder has more than enough power to bump them up. You can squeeze a lead ball pretty flat with a pair of pliers and I bet you aren't putting 10,000 to 11,000 PSI on it with a pair of pliers. There is empirical evidence and probably much science proving this beyond a shadow of a doubt in BP cartridges. I know....the bullets are heavier thus resistance is greater, however, it occurs with even the lightest bullets for a given caliber.

I've never seen true rifling marks on any round ball I've recovered either.....but if you stop to think for a moment, how can there be? A good patch isn't destroyed upon firing and even tho the cloth is compressed by both the loading sequence and the ball expanding into the rifling upon firing, which it certainly does, the patch isn't gone. It is still there, doing it's job as either a steering guide, a gasket, a means to hold the ball in the barrel or a seal or whatever true purpose it serves. It works and to me that's the most important part.

Hard lead, soft lead......well, each rifle is an entity unto itself. We all know that. I'll stick with as soft a lead as I can find for my muzzleloaders and a 25-1 alloy for my BPC rifles. It's worked for a few centuries and I believe I'll stick with it.

Vic
 
as far as the ball being out of round by .005, i haven't had much (if any measurable) improvement in groups between cast lead from an aluminum el- cheap- o mould (which has served me wekll for over twenty years), and the fancy swaged lead balls for which one pays a small fortune; this is not, after all, Camp Perry. i'm not that great a shot, so it might be 'operator headspace and timing' but i suspect that empiricism trumps theory in such matters.

as regards obduration, i have always thought that the obdurator seal (to borrow a cannon tube artillery term) is formed by the patch. (I make this conclusion on the basis of weaving patterns in the lead of recovered balls- clearly, the cloth has been engraved into the lead.)

thus: the ball does indeed obdurate (yes, that is a very cool word): it obdurates into the patch, which then forms the seal

go with whatever works for you.

Good luck

MSW
 
sharps4590 said:
You can squeeze a lead ball pretty flat with a pair of pliers and I bet you aren't putting 10,000 to 11,000 PSI on it with a pair of pliers.

But...

If you load a round ball into a Whitworth it shoots a round hole in the target, not a hexagon :grin:
 
Squire Robin said:
But...

If you load a round ball into a Whitworth it shoots a round hole in the target, not a hexagon :grin:

I never fired a Whitworth but I'll bet if you shoot a hexagon out of it you'll still get a round hole. :hmm: :grin:
 
Cute Tans....I like it!!! I believe "upset" or "bump up" are both more than likely more correct for our usage.

rebel...I'd bet a significant sum you're correct!

I believe I should have most correctly said what MSW said in that the ball upsets into the patch as the patch does separate the ball from the rifling. However, the ball still "upsets" or "bumps up" in size.

One example of this is an original Sharps 44-77 which was considerably overbored for the caliber, as many originals were, that would shoot bullets cast 30-1 or even straight lead bullets quite accurately. The recovered bullets were nicely engraved with rifling. If a harder alloy of 16-1 or 10-1 was used it was all over the place and recovered bullets were not engraved or showed barely discernible traces of rifling. Yes, I know that softer alloys will cast larger but only one or two ten thousandths, not NEAR enough to take up the windage either bullet left in the bore. Somehow those softer bullets were becoming larger in diameter upon firing and there wasn't a little genie in the bore with a pair of pliers foreshortening them....at least not one I ever saw. Now you can cipher it out for yourself but my common sense tells me that upon ignition the black powder was "bumping up" or "upsetting", obturating if you want, the bullet. The same thing has to be occuring to a round ball. I do not see how it cannot occur. That is just one example....there are thousands.

Vic
 
What I would like to see is some high speed photography of a ball leaving the muzzle to see if it is noticeably out of round. Or even better, a ball recovered from a shot that has not been deformed by impact. Maybe a ball fired long distance into water where most velocity is shed before landing.

HD
 
Page 53 of the Lyman BP manual shows cloose up high speed photos of a double ball load using a pair of .560 balls over 120grns 2F fired out of a ML rifle...the two touching sides are flattened out but there's not a rifling mark on them...
 
This is my photo of a Hornady .440 recovered from a 6 pointer...broke a rib going in and flattened out one side like an igloo...the ball is sitting on it's flat side in the photo...90grns Goex 3F, oxyoke wad, .018" pillow ticking...not a rifling mark on it.
1837427Hornady.440-6pointer800pix.JPG
 
At first glance the ball apears to be round,the more i look the more it has a slight stop sign shape.It may not show rifling marks but apears to at least swelled up to the lands of the bore.It isnt round anymore.So something has happend to the ball while in the bore?
 
the slight shape could have come from the loading of the patch againts the lands.On a good snug fit i know it does leave the impression of the patch on the ball.Which it should IMO.Im not of much opinion on this subject but lead being as soft a metal as it is would swell at least a little when the fire is lite id think.Dont really matter as long as the ball goes where its aimed. :haha:
 
Neither the bullets from BPC rifles nor the round ball are going to be noticibly misshapen. That would have to occur after the projectile has left the bore and that ain't gonna happen due to the obvious pressure drop. Projectiles can only expand so much inside the bore with black powder pressures. The ball stops at the patch and bullets stop at the grooves. At most we're talking a few thousandths and that isn't going to be noticible, at any high film speed.

I'm confident that with smokeless powder one could drive a round ball, even a very hard cast one, hard enough, quickly enough to shape it into almost a cylinder, semi-wadcutter like, but with smokeless we're talking considerably higher pressures. If you've shot cast bullets over smokeless much you can see this if you drive them too fast or with a powder that burns too quickly. They will be ......bent at the nose.....for lack of a better word. With bullets that have bore riding noses, they're kinda wasp waisted between the nose and the driving bands, you can measure that the waist has actually disappeared, expanded into the rifling, when driven at high cast bullet velocities.

I'm also confident that if you cast a ball or bullet from linotype, or alloy it hard enough, that it would not expand into the patch or the rifling when using black powder. Linotype generally goes about 22 on the BHN scale and the Hawk, jacketed bullets I use in my double rifles measure 25 on the BHN scale. There isn't a lot of difference between the two. Unless I'm mistaken pure lead, or as pure as we're likely to use, goes about 6 on the BHN scale.

I'm always amazed that this relatively simple concept is often so difficult to understand or believe.

Vic
 
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