How much Powder?

[Griz44Mag]

I will be sighting in and getting ready for a black powder hunt in January. I have yet to fire my first round from a black powder gun, and just want some reassurance that I am on the right track. The rifle is a 50 cal Thompson Hawken and I picked up a couple of boxes of T/C MAXI-HUNTER 275 grain bullets for this outing. I picked up a couple of pounds of 2f black powder. The game is white tail and potentially a Mulie so I wanted to be sure I have enough knock down. How much powder should I use and what is the expected muzzle velocity? I want to maximize the hit and minimize the drop out to 100-125 yards. I will sight in a at 50, then zero at 100. However I do not want to get excessive pressures and possibly damage the gun. With normal powder/bullet loads the heavier the bullet, the lighter the charge to reduce pressure. Is that still true with black powder?
All I see is instructions to not exceed 100 grains of powder but nothing tells me what weight the projectiles are when shot with 100 grain loads. Am I just overthinking this?

Griz

 

[coloradoclyde]

Start at 60 grains...work your way up in 5 grain increments until you find the most accurate load. or it becomes unpleasant...(do not exceed maximum)
Accuracy is more important than power.
Based on all my 50 cal guns you will end up somewhere around 80 grains.

 

[azmntman]

Try 75 and up it 5 gr at a time for most accurate oad. Its plenty believe me. A PRB would be just as deadly...consider it

 

[Zonie]

Like colorado clyde said, accuracy is the name of the game.

The idea that faster is better does count a bit when it comes to bullet drop but, with these muzzleloaders, the diameter of the round ball or slug is the thing that does all of the work.

Think of it this way: With a .50 or .54 caliber rifle, the ball or slug starts out as large or larger than modern bullets expand to.
Not only do they start out big but being soft lead, they expand a LOT when they burrow their way thru a animal.

If it hits in the chest cavity the results will be lethal.

azmntman's suggestion of 75 grains is about right for a patched roundball but a slug might want a little more powder.

In either case, 100 grains is more powder than you will need to kill a deer with either round ball or a slug.

Oh. You'll see a lot of folks at modern rifle hunting sites bad mouthing patched roundballs but out to 120-130 yards, they will kill just as good as any of the modern guns.

 

[azmntman]

75 would be my minimum in a conical.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I appreciate that info. I was actually looking for round ball but could not find any local store that had them in stock. I will get some ordered and get that done as well. I grabbed what I could find because I am not letting another weekend get by without taking this beast out and shooting it. I have until mid January to get the hunting load and point of impact all worked out. I also need to get me oriented and work out a routine for prepping, loading, shooting and cleaning.
I have a starting point now, so I'll get up to speed this weekend.

Griz

 

[Britsmoothy]

Don't worry about the pressure thing. It's not like nitro.

Just make sure you don't have a cavity betwixt powder and ball/bullet.

B.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You're shooting a 275 grain projectile that is from a .50 caliber rifle. The original government .45-70 launched a 405 grain .458 bullet with a mere 70 grains of black powder and nobody suggests that in an accurate rifle that old load would fail vs. even mule deer out to 100 yards, so I think something between 60-80 grains of powder will do the trick for you with that bullet in a muzzle loader. :wink: As suggested, figure out what load is the most accurate in that range of powder amount, and then go make some meat.

LD

 

[nwtradegun]

you should also get some 490 rd balls and patches. tc hawkens are known to not shot both. you need to experiment . I had a tc 50 cal that would only shoot rd ball. bullets were all over the target.

 

[coloradoclyde]

For comparison, I have killed deer with a 45/70 using light loads (subsonic)....farthest one ran was 50 yards down a steep embankment. bullet went clean through.

 

[tenngun]

Shooting ball at fast muzzle velocities doesn’t pay off down range. A . 50 at 2200 fps will loose half its velocity in a hundred yards. A .50 at 1100 fps will slow to about 850fps at the same range. Both will go through and through a deer.
Some sort of conical will keep its velocity a little better, but the down range payoff for big powder charges just don’t pay off.
Before the WBTS test were done at three hundred yards a minie ontop of 75 grains of two f resulted in a shot going through four inch’s of pine. More then enough to drop Bambi.

 

[George]

Shooting ball at fast muzzle velocities doesn’t pay off down range. A . 50 at 2200 fps will loose half its velocity in a hundred yards. A .50 at 1100 fps will slow to about 850fps at the same range.

If you actually work out the velocities at 100 yards for a .490" ball weighing 176.7 grains, the 2200 fps ball will retain 1244 fps at 100 yards, the 1100 fps ball will retain 840 fps. That's considerably better than is usually admitted to by those claiming higher MVs accomplish nothing.

The argument that higher muzzle velocities are a waste of powder and no better than lower ones conveniently fails to mention that the ball which starts faster stays faster all along the trajectory. Faster translates to flatter trajectory and longer range, and in some situations that is useful or even necessary.

It's true that higher MVs are of no benefit if you are going to shoot all your deer at 50 yards or less, but then at that range you don't need to even think about velocity or trajectory. My Grandmother could pot a deer at that range with most any load, left handed. :haha:

Spence

 

[Patocazador]

Try 75 and up it 5 gr at a time for most accurate oad. Its plenty believe me. A PRB would be just as deadly...consider it

Good advice. By the way, both of my T/C Hawkens shoot PRBs and conicals accurately. The 1:48 twist and shallow rifling in them seem to give the best of both worlds (BOBW). :grin:

 

[Griz44Mag]

The distances we will be shooting will be 80-125 yards. I figured to get the sights on paper at 50, move to 100 and zero the rifle. I can feed that information into my ballistics app and come up with holdovers or unders anywhere in the anticipated distance. After I find out where the accuracy node is, I will strap a magnetospeed on it and find out what the velocity is. Maybe this is overthinking the whole whole process, but I regularly shoot several rifles out to 1,000 (and beyond) and all these things do matter. Faster is always better downrange as long as the load is accurate.
What's the longest any of you have shot your muzzle loaders? I think it would be fun to see how far out it could be pushed.

Griz44Mag

 

[Griz44Mag]

I have taken several large animals with my 45/70, but with a modern bullet and smokeless powder. Now that I have black powder, it might be fun to load up some original cartridges and see what they will do.!!

Griz

 

[Griz44Mag]

That's good to hear! I did order some round balls on-line today, should get them in a few days.

Griz

 

[azmntman]

What's the longest any of you have shot your muzzle loaders? I think it would be fun to see how far out it could be pushed.

Griz44Mag
[/quote]

My longest (and dumbest) shots hunting were both 180 yds. 1987 muzzleloader elk, last day, almost dark, too dark in woods, drove through a field, BULL, 180 yds. Aimed 3' over shoulder. .54 hawkin conical hit shoulder low and split in three pieces, lungs, heart and windpipe. 30 yd run.

Last time (1994) 180 yds at a trotting mulie. Aimed at neck. Hit way low way back. GUTS, with a tinnie tiny nick in liver, enough to bleed when he got up and walked a bit. 6 hrs and 4.9 miles later (per GPS) snuck up and finsihed him off in a "gulch" that forms border of two hunting units. Not fun (should have aimed at nose and dropped him, right?

That said just done shoot over 100yds +/-, these critters deserve an instant meeting with The deer/elk Gods, and that mulie was not treated fairly :shake: , the elk was pure luck. :shocked2:

For range time shoot as far as ya can see :grin: My enfield has sites that appear to be made for aiming at the man on the moon. I hardly ever practice of 90 yds myself.

 

[rushlake1]

Suggest using a card or wool bore button behind that lead slug to get a good seal.

You'll know when you have too much powder when you get hammer blow back.

Also suggest you swab between shots depending on the bullet lube used.

Keep the bore consistent between shots.

Tip...Most prepackaged lead slugs come pre lubed..buy the time they go down the bore the lube is dried up.

There are a couple of full time lead slug shooters here hope they chime in.

I shot 420 gr. buffalo bullets for 20 years..in a T/C 54 cal Renegade Hunter......deer thumpers!

 

[Griz44Mag]

Tip...Most prepackaged lead slugs come pre lubed..buy the time they go down the bore the lube is dried up.

If I keep shooting bullets instead of ball, I'll get a mold and cast. I already cast 15 or 20 different bullets and have a Lyman Luber with a heater. I make my own lube using beeswax and Alox (50-50) except in the summer I will add a touch of Carnuba to stiffen it up for warm weather. I am hoping that the round ball works out, they don't need lubing or sizing if they are patched. (See, I am learning already and still have not fired my first shot from a muzzle loader)

 

[Stumpkiller]

What's the longest any of you have shot your muzzle loaders? I think it would be fun to see how far out it could be pushed.

In the late 1970's I used to woodchuck hunt with a .36 T/C Seneca percussion and using the T/C Maxiballs I and my bud (he had a .45 T/C Hawken) would try and reach out over 100 yards for any (as we had started with centerfires and they were getting hard to find). We had some hits out to 180 paces . . . but that would be VERY rare and an unlucky chuck. Tons of fun.

On whitetail deer: .50 conical to 120 yards (bedded buck and I had a downed tree trunk to use as a rest). Iron sighted T/C .50 New Englander percussion. I watched him come in and tuck in across a small gully and I took 15 minutes to ooooze into a good shooting position. That was with an 80 gr FFg charge and a veggie fiber wad, as I recall. We're shotgun slug during regular season and I preferred a muzzleloading rifle.

.50 and .54 round ball to 80 yards. Most under 50 yards. I haven't used a conical for 20 years or better. Or a percussion for 10 or 12. ;-)

My .66 smoothbore reaches out to 60 yards with a one ounce round ball. But I prefer 40 yds.