How much weight can be removed?

[SOLANCO]

I've been looking for a lightweight English percussion double. A lot are in the 7-pound range. I found one yesterday that was 6 pounds 7 ounces. That a whole pound more than my vintage Pedersoli 12 gauge percussion gun. I found a Purdey that is a .52 winged conical rifled on one side and .56 smooth on the other. I might get it and make both barrels .58 smooth. It would go nicely with my Purdey SOSLE, hammergun and rifle. This one weighs 5 pound 12 ounces in the current configuration. I just don't know who will ream the tubes out to .58 for me.

Bobby Hoyt. Search the Forums and you will find him. He has en excellent reputation.

 

[SOLANCO]

I appreciate all of the thoughtful comments. It seems to me that if I keep the Pedersoli it will be reserved for duck blind use. The heavy barrels DO make for a good swing and follow through.

I was hoping for a ML double for the uplands. An extra pound or two in your arms all day makes a difference if you are following a dog in rolling terrain.
I have unmentionables that are 6 pounds or under. W.C.Scott in 20. Sauer hammergun in 16.

 

[Sparkitoff]

The weight is important due to some physical issues. I have experimented with this all year and I have had my sports medicine doc work with a mock in-office experiment of the same kind. I get severe wrist and elbow pain above a certain weight. I started with a 7.5 pound gun for 4-hours. Went to a 7-pound even, then down to a 6-pound 10 -ounce gun. Down to a 6-pound 4-ounce gun. Down to a 6 pounder. Down to a 5 pound-12 ounce. Bingo! No pain at that weight. So we went back to the 6-pound to see how long I could manage it without the pain. Right at 4-hours the pain showed up. Less than an additional hour I could hardly carry it. Back to the 5-pound 12 ounce. Nothing at the 4-hour mark. Went all the way to 6-hours with no pain. Great experiment in the field because my doctor was monitoring results and my wife said nothing about the 3X per week hunting under doctors orders! In the Dr.s office, I walked with a weighted bar. These are only full and half pounds. We got the same results, over 6 was a short-term affair. Half-day hunts are common for me at around 4-5 hours. Woodcock season I might be out there 8-hours but once per week. The weight really makes a big difference to me.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Down to a 5 pound-12 ounce. Bingo! No pain at that weight. So we went back to the 6-pound to see how long I could manage it without the pain. Right at 4-hours the pain showed up. Less than an additional hour I could hardly carry it. Back to the 5-pound 12 ounce. Nothing at the 4-hour mark. Went all the way to 6-hours with no pain.
...
Half-day hunts are common for me at around 4-5 hours. Woodcock season I might be out there 8-hours but once per week. The weight really makes a big difference to me.

Sounds like you have your answer then, comfort and longevity are very important, because if you're miserable or cause long-term damage to yourself, you aren't enjoying being in the field. There's nothing wrong with a 20 bore gun, especially if it's choked, you can still load an ounce and 2.75 drams of powder in even a fairly thin barrel with no issue, and that's a lot of bird-downing-power. Shoot, you could go down to 24 (2-1/2 drams, 7/8oz) and 28 bore (2-1/3 drams, 3/4 oz) and still be great for most applications.

Jug choking requires a bit thicker barrel walls than normal restriction choking to get the desired effect, but you can load it easy as a CYL bore (but will increase the weight a bit). You could have your barrels "choke bored", which is a very similar process to back-boring modern shot-barrels, you just leave the last 3-4" the original diameter, bore a conical section at the transition between the new bore size and the old, and then ream out the last 3-4" to the diameter that will throw the pattern you want (costs $$$, but allows a pretty light barrel, also the way many choked guns were made in the 16-1700's and early 1800's). Or you can "cheat" and have the muzzles reamed and tapped for tubes (in 12 and 20 bores, can't hardly beat Invector DS (the brass ring helps keep fouling out of the threads), but Invector (STD or Plus) works too (and is available in more bores)); and that will only require your original barrel walls to be .053" to hold the chokes in (opposed to the .040" for choke-bored barrels).

Choking shot-barrels makes them substantially more efficient on shot/powder for the distances you're hunting (means you don't have to load it up so heavy/ don't need as large of bores to be effective), and if it's a dedicated shotgun, might as well make it the best shotgun it can be (just like the customers who purchased the high-end bird guns of the 16-early 1800's did).

 

[shorthair]

Good heavens, how thick are those barrels? Even if you don't get a pound off, you'd be surprised how light a more butt-balanced gun can feel in hand. So long as you can maintain .04" wall thickness at the thinnest point (just prior to the choke) and .2" at the breech, you should be good for reasonable shot loads (no 200gr charges with 3oz of shot or the crazy loads some on the forum are using to get around the fact that they have cyl. bored guns lol when hunting at modern shotgun distances). That would mean each of your barrels would taper from 1.18" down to .855" at the muzzle. Personally, I would go with a 1.2" down to .89" barrel, to add a little more durability.

You would basically have to remake the gun, in order to not have it look weird (stock fit, lock fit, excessive material between the barrels, re-soldering barrels, ect). Sell the Pedersoli, get a custom piece that fits what you want, in my opinion. They shouldn't cost any more than a Pedersoli for a basic one (or you can go crazy with the gold inlays, engravings, and carvings ).

Plus you'd have to re-regulate so that it didn't shot each barrel to vastly different points of aim, a real art in itself.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Plus you'd have to re-regulate so that it didn't shot each barrel to vastly different points of aim, a real art in itself.

Start out with the barrels level and slightly converging, then take it out to shoot it. To find the pattern, I use rosin paper from the hardware stores to set up a patterning board, two stands side by side. Mark an aiming point on each, fire one barrel at one sheet, the other at the other. Overlay the two sheets, trace holes through to the other one to see how close the barrels are.

Adjust it from there with the load you want to shoot. Get the windage on with the wedge, then set the vertical. Sometimes you get it right after a couple tries; and sometimes, you burn over a pound of powder and a couple pounds of lead to get it right (and headaches) (AKA my first, and last SxS rifle build; because of that, now I only make O/U, which are much easier to regulate).

Cheap SxS's were regulated to be "close enough", but the higher end guns from H&H, Purdy, Henry, Manton, ect. were regulated like that (that's why they cost so much). Modern SxS's often use a user-adjustable regulating wedge to get around that (and save $$).

 

[SOLANCO]

Good heavens, how thick are those barrels? Even if you don't get a pound off, you'd be surprised how light a more butt-balanced gun can feel in hand. So long as you can maintain .04" wall thickness at the thinnest point (just prior to the choke) and .2" at the breech, you should be good for reasonable shot loads (no 200gr charges with 3oz of shot or the crazy loads some on the forum are using to get around the fact that they have cyl. bored guns lol when hunting at modern shotgun distances). That would mean each of your barrels would taper from 1.18" down to .855" at the muzzle. Personally, I would go with a 1.2" down to .89" barrel, to add a little more durability.

You would basically have to remake the gun, in order to not have it look weird (stock fit, lock fit, excessive material between the barrels, re-soldering barrels, ect). Sell the Pedersoli, get a custom piece that fits what you want, in my opinion. They shouldn't cost any more than a Pedersoli for a basic one (or you can go crazy with the gold inlays, engravings, and carvings ).

" Sell the Pedersoli, get a custom piece that fits what you want, in my opinion. They shouldn't cost any more than a Pedersoli for a basic one "

But where oh where to get that custom one?

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

" Sell the Pedersoli, get a custom piece that fits what you want, in my opinion. They shouldn't cost any more than a Pedersoli for a basic one "

But where oh where to get that custom one?

There are many small-time builders, many of them are users of the forum. It's just that if you use the forum to conduct business for your business without being a commercial sponsor (the guys in the commercial marketplace section on the main page), you can get banned permanently... I don't don't believe it costs that much to be a commercial sponsor, it's just that many don't bother.

perhaps one day someone might decide to sell their "personally owned", only test fired custom piece lol

 

[SOLANCO]

Just posted under forearms for sale/trade/wanted. Guess I'll see what happens.
Must say it was easier finding my unmentionable upland guns. Almost more trouble finding the 2.5 inch cartridges than it was the guns.

 

[user 48702]

not a fan of the wood Pedersoli uses. i would think carefully about weakening it.

Are you talking about grade of wood or type of wood? American Black Walnut or Maple are all they use. All their wood is imported from the U.S.

 

[user 48702]

There are many small-time builders, many of them are users of the forum. It's just that if you use the forum to conduct business for your business without being a commercial sponsor (the guys in the commercial marketplace section on the main page), you can get banned permanently... I don't don't believe it costs that much to be a commercial sponsor, it's just that many don't bother.

perhaps one day someone might decide to sell their "personally owned", only test fired custom piece lol

Quality custom makers worth their salt, turning out quality don't have to advertise. Most are backed up for up to a year or more.

 

[SOLANCO]

Quality custom makers worth their salt, turning out quality don't have to advertise. Most are backed up for up to a year or more.

True but..... They won't stay backed up without word of mouth.

 

[FishDFly]

This question is not so much about "building" but more about modifying a kit. In particular, the Pedersoli 10 gauge percussion shotgun happens to weigh the same as their finished 20 and 12 gauge percussion guns. They're too heavy in my opinion at 7 pounds, 4 ounces. How much weight could you possibly shed by thinning the stock, maybe sanding down the barrels extensively, eliminating some of the hardware or reducing it? A good -sized hole from the butt (I'm thinking an inch round and maybe 3-4 inches deep)?

Is there a whole pound of weight somewhere to shed? How would you go about it?

Thanks

The Pedersoli Kodiak's have a 1 LB weight in the stock which can be seen after removing the butt plate.

You might remove the butt plate from your shotgun to see if one is in the stock.

 

[user 48702]

True but..... They won't stay backed up without word of mouth.

I might be stuttering, but the only other advertising other than word of mouth would be commercial advertising.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Quality custom makers worth their salt, turning out quality don't have to advertise. Most are backed up for up to a year or more.

Ah yes, the guys that turn out a gun every 2-6 months and have been doing this "full-time" for 30+ years... because as we know, no one that doesn't have a multi-decade wait list can't produce a decent gun (cough, H&H and Purdy, cough) ( (ignoring the reality that some people are quality gunmakers part-time (there's other stuff they do, kinda like most of the original gunmakers (especially in the late 1700's and early 1800's Americas)) and that some people don't believe in having multi-year waitlists).

In my experience, it takes 14-18 shop-hours to produce a "field-grade" gun (provided you aren't making your own barrels and cutting your own lumber, which most gunmakers didn't do themselves anyway). If you start adding embellishments, it adds time, but then again, you charge for that. Most people who hobby-build on here take their sweet time (because it's a hobby), just like the guy's "worth their salt" who do this "full-time" and are lucky to turn out 15 guns in a year. The funny thing is, many of those "pro's" are using the same CNC blanks the hobbyists are, the same locks, and barrels (honestly the whole gun). Being a pro means you have the tooling to make turning out product efficient, otherwise, you're just a hobbyist who charges a lot (not knocking the work of most of those guy's, but some play up what they do waaayyy too much (or rather, it's played up for them over years)).

Not every gun has to be a museum grade forgery, not every gun has to be a masterpiece (in the truest use of the word). A plain gun will shoot every bit as good as a pretty gun, and you are more likely to take it out and use it to death over a couple generations if it isn't too pretty.

 

[French Colonial]

If I were having a custom gun made I would talk to Chuck Edwards. Last I knew (fall Fort de Chartres) he had some completed guns for sale, one a very nice colonial that I would have bought if I did not already have one.

Flint Locks by Chuck Edwards (chuckedwardsflintlocks.blogspot.com)

 

[Sparkitoff]

The Pedersoli (double rifles) may have a weight in the stock? I will look in the shotgun. Does it come out readily? I have been told that the breach plugs are set on the barrels before joining and regulating. Therefore, they cannot be removed without a complete disassembly of the barrels. Look at my few shotguns, that does seem to be the case. So having someone ream out a barrel does not seem feasible, and in some cases not even possible.

 

[FishDFly]

"The Pedersoli (double rifles) may have a weight in the stock? I will look in the shotgun. Does it come out readily? "

Remove the butt plate on a Kodiak and there is a round lead bar in the middle of the stock. It is a bear to get out. Need to screw something into the lead to attach a rope to pull it out. You are not going to just shake it out.

I have a ten gauge double, never did check it for the lead.

 

[user 48702]

Ah yes, the guys that turn out a gun every 2-6 months and have been doing this "full-time" for 30+ years... because as we know, no one that doesn't have a multi-decade wait list can't produce a decent gun (cough, H&H and Purdy, cough) ( (ignoring the reality that some people are quality gunmakers part-time (there's other stuff they do, kinda like most of the original gunmakers (especially in the late 1700's and early 1800's Americas)) and that some people don't believe in having multi-year waitlists).

In my experience, it takes 14-18 shop-hours to produce a "field-grade" gun (provided you aren't making your own barrels and cutting your own lumber, which most gunmakers didn't do themselves anyway). If you start adding embellishments, it adds time, but then again, you charge for that. Most people who hobby-build on here take their sweet time (because it's a hobby), just like the guy's "worth their salt" who do this "full-time" and are lucky to turn out 15 guns in a year. The funny thing is, many of those "pro's" are using the same CNC blanks the hobbyists are, the same locks, and barrels (honestly the whole gun). Being a pro means you have the tooling to make turning out product efficient, otherwise, you're just a hobbyist who charges a lot (not knocking the work of most of those guy's, but some play up what they do waaayyy too much (or rather, it's played up for them over years)).

Not every gun has to be a museum grade forgery, not every gun has to be a masterpiece (in the truest use of the word). A plain gun will shoot every bit as good as a pretty gun, and you are more likely to take it out and use it to death over a couple generations if it isn't too pretty.

My, my, must have struck a nerve. Funny how a 24 word post could generate so much wind, I could sail across the pond on that one. All I had to say was:

"Quality custom makers worth their salt, turning out quality don't have to advertise. Most are backed up for up to a year or more."

In my statement, there was no mention as to one being either a "hobbyist" or a 60+ hour per week professional gunmaker. There was no inference as to how long it takes a smith to turn out a gun, whether they're full time, or as to the quality of their tools or tooling, or last but not least, how efficient their time management is. In your "14-18 shop hours" statement, it sounds like your describing Pedersoli in a nutshell. Definitely not custom, but Pedersoli, according to the gun, can have up to 18 man hours or more invested in producing a rifle or shotgun; however, they do cut their own lumber and make their own barrels. As a matter of fact, they produce every last part right down to the smallest screw, as well as importing U.S. American Walnut and Maple slabs for their stocks. Although a classic assembly line process, its still interesting seeing their production process from start to finish.

When I do decide what I want in a custom rifle, it will be from Jim Parker of Calvary Longrifles. As an added plus, his shop is less than 15 miles away from my shop, and he does excellent work.

Jim Parker Masonic Mountain Men Rifle

 

[Sparkitoff]

No weight in the 20 or 12 gauge. It was a good try.