How short of a barrel makes sense?

[Hglucky13]

wouldnt it be wise to look to our past? I am sure the wise for fathers would ahve used a short barreled fowler if they thought they were practical/ effective. I dont see a .24 inch barreled fowler being either... I would surmise that the lengths of guns from the past that we see are that way for a reason ...

I agree to an extent. But I also believe people tend to do what they always have without too much questioning.
I do see a trend with shorter barrels in the trade gun realm as time went on. So someone either saw the benefit or it was just cheaper...
My main goal isn't to have the shortest barrel i can have, I'd just get a pistol. But instead im looking for not having "extra" length that is unnecessary for either muzzle velocity or handling. The way I currently understand it that might be closer to 30".
But I could be wrong....

 

[hanshi]

I've never done that much shooting using shot; but I did shoot a 12 ga double I had quite a lot. It was a very nice Pedersoli 12 ga "Coach" gun. If memory serves I recall maybe 22", could have been 24" I suppose. With two cylinder bore barrels tight patterns were not possible much past 15 yards or so. I did use it on a couple of squirrels and on informal clays. It was tremendous fun to shoot and carry but not especially good for hunting. For game I would have preferred at least 28" plus barrels. My only smoothbore now is a 38" X 20 ga cylinder bore flintlock. Not as light and handy as the little double but it patterns noticeably better.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The documented case of short barreled smooth bored trade guns was when Pontiac attacked Fort Michilimackinac. Trade guns were cut down and hidden under blankets as natives were playing a game of baggatiway (similar to lacrosse). When the ball was tossed into the fort everyone rushed in. The short guns were pulled from under the blankets and the massacre commenced.

There are references to blanket guns and short barreled buffalo running guns, but not much else.

 

[Hglucky13]

The documented case of short barreled smooth bored trade guns was when Pontiac attacked Fort Michilimackinac. Trade guns were cut down and hidden under blankets as natives were playing a game of baggatiway (similar to lacrosse). When the ball was tossed into the fort everyone rushed in. The short guns were pulled from under the blankets and the massacre commenced.

There are references to blanket guns and short barreled buffalo running guns, but not much else.

Forgive me cause I'm a total newbie but the stuff I've been reading suggests that at least the trade guns seemed to get shorter and shorter as time went on. Here is an excerpt from the track of the wolf website.

The book Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company 1670 - 1970 by S. James Gooding includes a wonderful chapter on the common barrel lengths delivered by the Hudson's Bay Company. The 42" octagon-to-round barrel was introduced as early as 1684 and was considered a standard length available there after. The 36" octagon-to-round barrel was introduced as early as 1688 in small numbers, and became a standard length by 1731. The 30" barrel length was introduced in 1841.

I'm gonna get this book and see what it has to offer.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You should also look at quantities ordered by barrel length. There were barrel length options being offered. Use the option that makes sense to you.

 

[Huntschool]

One might want to also consider the mode of transportation used by the buyers of said "trade guns." As time went from foot traffic while trapping to canoe and foot travel and then on to horse back the needs or preferences changed. Why was the short or shorter barreled so called mountain rifle or the Leman trade rifle short barreled and reinforced. And 1841, was beyond the height of the fur trade.

This whole barrel thing is mute relative to length other then this new guys perceived preference. Certainly the longer barrel will provide a better sighting line but as to performance based on load.... I think he needs to read some ballistic stuff...... If need be stuff some powder in the gun and shoot it over a white sheet. If there is no unburned powder laying on the sheet he has a fully burned load.... I doubt a PRB has slowed down before it leaves the barrel....

JMHO

 

[Hglucky13]

One might want to also consider the mode of transportation used by the buyers of said "trade guns." As time went from foot traffic while trapping to canoe and foot travel and then on to horse back the needs or preferences changed. Why was the short or shorter barreled so called mountain rifle or the Leman trade rifle short barreled and reinforced. And 1841, was beyond the height of the fur trade.

This whole barrel thing is mute relative to length other then this new guys perceived preference. Certainly the longer barrel will provide a better sighting line but as to performance based on load.... I think he needs to read some ballistic stuff...... If need be stuff some powder in the gun and shoot it over a white sheet. If there is no unburned powder laying on the sheet he has a fully burned load.... I doubt a PRB has slowed down before it leaves the barrel....

JMHO

I wish I could find some ballistic stuff online somewhere. Everything is geared toward modern bullet design and inlines. Not at all what I'm interested in. I have plenty of centerfire weapons if I wanted to go that route. Thats kinda why I started this thread, to get some personal insight from people in the know. Im not trying to convince anybody except myself. If I could afford to, I would buy guns of all lengths and shoot them myself and find the perfect length for the charge weight. And be able to find the best handling gun. There just no budget for that. Thats why I come to a place like this to get help.

 

[Hglucky13]

One might want to also consider the mode of transportation used by the buyers of said "trade guns." As time went from foot traffic while trapping to canoe and foot travel and then on to horse back the needs or preferences changed. Why was the short or shorter barreled so called mountain rifle or the Leman trade rifle short barreled and reinforced. And 1841, was beyond the height of the fur trade.

This whole barrel thing is mute relative to length other then this new guys perceived preference. Certainly the longer barrel will provide a better sighting line but as to performance based on load.... I think he needs to read some ballistic stuff...... If need be stuff some powder in the gun and shoot it over a white sheet. If there is no unburned powder laying on the sheet he has a fully burned load.... I doubt a PRB has slowed down before it leaves the barrel....

JMHO

I'm not sure a white sheet would work. Blackpowder is not very efficient, I've read only 40-45% actually gets converted to gas. I imagine there would always be unburnt powder come out the end. Best way would be taking a barrel and cutting an inch or so off after each shot and measuring velocity. That would give a graph that would guide someone to the barrel length that worked best for them.

 

[Hglucky13]

I hope that im not coming across as antagonistic towards anyone on here. Really im just trying to have a conversation on the reasoning of barrel length choice. I am very new to all of this and I am using this forum as as a fireside chat. Never intending to aggravate anyone. And so far I've really enjoyed the information. Its sent me down alot of endless Google searches that have opened my eyes to all kinds of cool stuff. Thanks everyone. Keep it up. If i need to have a long barrel to achieve the goals im looking for so be it.. ill gladly run a 44" barrel if thats what I need. But Im still looking for a better understanding of actual muzzle velocity and barrel length. And where is the point of diminishing returns.

 

[Zonie]

Many years ago, Dixie Gun Works tested the velocity effects of shortening a .40 caliber barrel.
Below is a picture of their findings. The barrel started off 40 inches long and was shortened by 2 inches and retested.

Some of the information seems to be a bit confusing but I think the basic values can help one to understanding how the length of a barrel with the same powder charge effects the velocity.

 

[Hglucky13]

Many years ago, Dixie Gun Works tested the velocity effects of shortening a .40 caliber barrel.
Below is a picture of their findings. The barrel started off 40 inches long and was shortened by 2 inches and retested.

View attachment 51046

Some of the information seems to be a bit confusing but I think the basic values can help one to understanding how the length of a barrel with the same powder charge effects the velocity.

This is the kind of info I love to see. With this and a few other things I've seen, which I'll include in this thread, Im staring to get an idea of what I want.
Thank you

 

[Grenadier1758]

... Thats kinda why I started this thread, to get some personal insight from people in the know. Im not trying to convince anybody except myself. If I could afford to, I would buy guns of all lengths and shoot them myself and find the perfect length for the charge weight. And be able to find the best handling gun. There just no budget for that. Thats why I come to a place like this to get help.

Unfortunately there are people on this board in the know that all have different opinions with respect to the barrel length that makes sense. When I wear my red uniform, the 46" length of my Long Land Pattern King's Musket makes the most sense. Squirrel hunting in the open woods with my 42" American fowler makes a lot of sense. Looking for turkeys, then my 39" full choked 12 gauge seems the ideal choice. When I'm in the open fields looking for shots at upland birds, then the 28" barrels on my side by side makes the most sense. I think that the barrel length and bore size that makes the most sense really depends on the application.

One of our problems is that one gun eventually just isn't applicable for all situations.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I had North Star 24 ga Trade Gun. 58 caliber. Did everything I could possibly want here in Pennsylvania. A little long for swinging after flying birds, but I got accustomed to it. I did not even mind the smaller ga. The North Star was very lightweight and well tuned. Which I think made a huge difference in use.

 

[flintlock75]

So I've been reading alot about an all-around smoothbore flintlock. Boker's thread got me started down this path and I'm very interested in the idea of a multipurpose flintlock. My hunting is all out west, either in Arizona or Montana as I have homes in each locale and travel back and forth between the two states. Arizona is wide open desert, looking at hunting coues and muley, along with Javelina and rabbit. Montana is in the western part of the state, thick forest, hunting whitetail, muley, elk, squirrel, rabbit, grouse, turkey.
So the idea is a 20 ga smoothbore, likely a trade gun of some sort. But my question is how short of a barrel will keep the performance I need to harvest the listed animals.
I've come across a "canoe gun" from sitting fox, 24" barrel. This would be super handy to carry through the thick woods of montana. But will it still have the reach I might need in arizona?
Most barrels seem to be closer to the 40" or even longer. It this length necessary with blackpowder to get enough velocity? Where is the sensible cutoff length?

I have a variety of guns/ barrel lengths. I have a trade gun .62 cal with a 24” barrel, at 50 yards it will keep RB. On a playing card but at 75 yards it’s more like a large plate. I have a cutdown Bess with a 32” barrel that will shoot a 10” group at 100 yards. Great for a smoothie. In a rifled barrel i have a 54 cal TC new England era w/ 26” barrel that will shoot a 1.5” group at 100 yards. I have taken moose and caribou with all 3 guns. For a handy rifle my jaeger w /28” barrel works good in open spaces and thick woods. In your areas I would go with at least a 28-30” barrel, with a smooth bore all your shots should be kept to 75 yards or less.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The 42" octagon-to-round barrel was introduced as early as 1684 and was considered a standard length available there after. The 36" octagon-to-round barrel was introduced as early as 1688 in small numbers, and became a standard length by 1731. The 30" barrel length was introduced in 1841.

So... from 1684 to 1841 the barrels went from 42" as a "standard" to 30"..., that's more than one and one-half century to lose 12". So by that standard rate of reduction...., it will be another 78 years for the barrels to get down to 24"...so by 1919 you should be good-to-go.... if you want a 24" barrel.

LD

 

[Hglucky13]

So... from 1684 to 1841 the barrels went from 42" as a "standard" to 30"..., that's more than one and one-half century to lose 12". So by that standard rate of reduction...., it will be another 78 years for the barrels to get down to 24"...so by 1919 you should be good-to-go.... if you want a 24" barrel.

LD

Haha
Yeah im not thinking 24" is going to the right length. So far based on what I've been reading I'd like a barrel length in the low 30's. Most kits either offer a 30" or a 36" with nothing that I've found in between. So I am trying to weigh the options between those two sizes.

 

[Eterry]

IIRC, the Lyman black powder manual took a Zouave 58 caliber and cut the barrel off in increments and recorded the average velocity for 5 shots, i think from 33 inches to 24.

This is the older version, not the most recent. The loss of velocity wasn't shocking, but it does drop as barrel decreases.

I'm at deer camp this weekend, when I get home i'll look it up. I figured someone would've mentioned it by now.

I truly think your over thinking this. One doesn't need a long barrel to be effective with a rifle. The black powder gun is not a long range weapon, more especially the smooth bore.

I think prb's from the 24" barrel won't bounce off an elk or mule deer, if a proper load of black powder is used.

 

[Eterry]

A short barrel 58 worked ok here. 26 or 28 inches i believe.

 

[RjSixgun]

1847 musketoon had a 25 inch barrel 69 cal smoothbore
as did some of the Macon Armory smoothbores.
also look at some the the cavalry carbines. many had 25 or less.

 

[Bad Karma]

Unfortunately there are people on this board in the know that all have different opinions with respect to the barrel length that makes sense. When I wear my red uniform, the 46" length of my Long Land Pattern King's Musket makes the most sense. Squirrel hunting in the open woods with my 42" American fowler makes a lot of sense. Looking for turkeys, then my 39" full choked 12 gauge seems the ideal choice. When I'm in the open fields looking for shots at upland birds, then the 28" barrels on my side by side makes the most sense. I think that the barrel length and bore size that makes the most sense really depends on the application.

One of our problems is that one gun eventually just isn't applicable for all situations.

I believe I’ll pass this on to my beloved... she knows this but an important point can tolerate reinforcement.