How thick for blades...

[Rifleman1776]

I don't believe common folk would spend the money for a smiths time to make a common working knife. I would have to think that only the upper classes would spend the money to commission a smith to make one, and then, most would probably prefered European craftsmanship to a local iron beater. There are just few surviving American smith made knives that are documentable.

Here I go again, disagreeing with the expert. :idunno: Oh, well. :wink:

Lessee, the major function of a village smitty was to make things on the frontier and in small towns folks needed. Whether it be a hinge or knife or whatever. If a feller needed a knife, he needed a knife and that was all there was to it. And as for documentation. Of course a lot of life at the time was not documented. Unlikely many, if any, blacksmiths were literate. Same with their customers. Possibly the only literate person in town was the merchant and, again, very unlikely he kept a diary of what happened around him. e.g. 'today the blacksmith made a knife for a customer, it had a 9" blade, 1/8" thick at the hilt......' Right, gimme a break.

 

[crockett]

I agree with everything being said and I'll add my learning curve. I started out with this idea that a frontiersman had a single shot, muzzle loading rifle. After he shot that one round then he had to fall back on other weapons like a tomahawk or big fighting knife. That made sense to me. Then, as others have said, lots of folks today were carrying big knives, so that re-enforced my notion. On the custom knives, once again, let's say some one made an exact copy of a scalper with a 1/16" or slightly thicker blade and then charged a custom knife price. No one would pay the cost, for an "expensive" knife the market wants a thicker blade that will last a life time, not something as thin as a fish fillet knife.
As has been stated, Daniel Boone carried some sort of large knife and others did as well. They all look "one of a kind" so the general thought is that such one of a kind knives were not imported from England as other similar knives would have been found, so, by default, they must have been made in North America and the most likely makers must has been black smiths.
That is a lot of supposing, I suppose :grin:
I'm still making a pc folding knife. I've been spending hours and hours to replicate something that was probably tilt/trip hammer forged and made in a few minutes. Such is life. Once again, few will pay a price for such a knife so none are made. If anyone carries a folder it will usually be a penny knife or friction folder- which is okay but the spring backed knives existed and are simply under represented today. They are difficult to re-create.
When I think of a "scalper" I usually think of the few styles that were used in the 1820-1840 era of the fur trade and mountain men era but in the Canadian North the HBC had scalpers dating back into the 1700's. The Manitoba Archives have inventory lists of these scalpers going to York Factory, etc. and if I recall some had longer blades (9-11") The Carl P. Russell book shows earlier scalpers in the Eastern portion of North America with longer blades so there was variation to trade knives. To the best of my knowledge all the "using" knives were of the thin "kitchen knife" style. Still, as has been stated, there is the D. Boone knife and similar styles.
On the double edge, I am told some (Davy Crockett's for one) were used as a woodsman knife not a fighting knife. One edge was kept sharp for skinning and the other used for camp chores. Or so I am told. The Long hunter "big" knives seem to often be single edged while the mountain men often seem double edged- or at least more common. I'm thinking the Antoine Clement painting and another of a mountain man fighting a bear, I think the name was Hollister.

 

[LRB]

We were discussing 18th c. knives, or at least Stophel and I were. I trust you do know the 1800's was the 19th c.?

 

[Wes/Tex]

Unlikely many, if any, blacksmiths were literate. Same with their customers. Possibly the only literate person in town was the merchant and, again, very unlikely he kept a diary of what happened around him. e.g. 'today the blacksmith made a knife for a customer, it had a 9" blade, 1/8" thick at the hilt......' Right, gimme a break.

Though unfortunately true in a majority of cases, we are fortunate that this is not true in all cases. In one very notable case, a blacksmith did keep an account of what he did. Noah Smithwick was the town blacksmith in San Felipe and was a noted knife maker as well as an accomplished blacksmith. In 1834 he had a noted person bring in his knife to have 10 copies made to give away as gifts to friends. When Jim Bowie came into his smithy, Smithwick had the following to say in his memoirs..."The Evolution of a State or Recollections of Old Texas Days".

"The blood christened weapon which had saved his life twice within a few seconds, was an ordinary affair with a plain wood handle, but when Bowie recovered from his wound he had the precious blade polished and set into an ivory handle mounted with silver; the scabbard also being silver mounted. Not wishing to degrade it by ordinary use, he brought the knife to me in San Felipe to have a duplicate made. The blade was about ten inches long and two broad at the widest part. When it became known that I was making a genuine Bowie knife, there was a great demand for them, so I cut a pattern and started a factory, my jobs bringing all the way from $5.00 to $20.00, according to finish."

In a further bit of good luck, my old pal Charley Eckhardt got to see one of Smithwick's original knives in 1953 as part of the collection of John R. Norris, a noted collector of the period. Charley was also smart enough to measure it all over and take meticulous notes. In his book, "Texas Tales Your Teacher Never Told You", Charley described what he saw and held that day.

"The Smithwick Bowie in Mr. Norris' possession had a blade ten and one-half inches long, two inches wide and a quarter-inch thick. The clip or 'gut-tickler' was three inches long and perfectly straight, not dished. The point was at the center line of the blade. It had neither fuller or ricasso...It had a perfectly straight iron crossguard, a full tang and a grip made of two pieces of light colored wood--possibly bois d' arc (Osage Orange or 'Hossapple')--which was fastened with two large rivets. The blade was marked near the guard with a large spread eagle and N. SMITHWICK in capital letters in a semicircle over the eagle. The dimensions of the Smithwick Bowie are identical to the dimensions Wellman gave for the Bowie knife in The Iron Mistress, which leads me to believe that he probably saw and measured a Smithwick Bowie in the research for the book."

Fortunately, two guys had the presence of mind to keep notes...and though the Bowie story is still twisted and vague, we do know what he was carrying in Texas when he came in 1834. Where that knife went is anyone's guess but my money is on a Santanista soldado or one of the officers.

 

[Rifleman1776]

18th c., not 1800's.

Huh??
You said:

THE major fighting knife of choice during the 18th c.

So wadda we talking about? BTW, a quickie search on Google brought up the Bowie sandbar fight with his 'bowie knife' in 1827 then it said Black made the first 'bowie knife' in his shop in 1830. Love/hate wiki.....

Wow! :shocked2: Did I step into it. :redface: But, wats new?
Found this PDF on the knife gallery site at the Historic Arkansas Museum (HAM) page. Lot of history I had never read before. It even explains why some of my searches said Bowie used his 'bowie' knife three years before James Black made him his 'first bowie'.
It seems some folks feel a "Bowie knife" is any knife that was in Jim Bowie's hand when he stabbed somebody. And, there seems to be little evidence Black made the first bowie knife at all. But, it may have been made by brother Rezin Bowie. I suggest printing this out and reading carefully and slowly. It is a very acedemic piece. I am not qualified to agree with or dispute any part of it. Just interesting. http://www.historicarkansas.org/pdf/RevisitingBlackQuestion.pdf

 

[LRB]

Very interesting and seemingly unbiased. I would suggest anyone with an interest in Bowie knives take the time to read this post.
Thank you Rifleman 1776 for posting this. I enjoyed it very much. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

 

[crockett]

The way I see it, there is no such thing as "THE" Bowie knife. There was the knife Jim Bowie used in the Sandbar fight and then, apparently several other knives owned by Bowie. So these were Bowie's knife. But here's the thing, the fight caused an international sensation. Everyone wanted one of these knives so a lot of cutlers started making big clip pointed fighting knives that were Pre-1840 and called "Bowie" knives so these are pc even if they didn't look at all like what Jim used.
so...1. Jim Bowie's Knife or knives
and.
2. Pre-1840 fighting knives called "Bowie Knives.

 

[salkehatchie]

Wow. Had no clue when I started this thread where it would lead.

Fantastic info!

I had...Chuck Burrows/Alan Longmire [ ? which one ] tell me once that Osage orange was used in the SW for blade handles. Is this smith account above the source?

Interesting indeed.

 

[LaBonte]

Wow. Had no clue when I started this thread where it would lead.

Fantastic info!

I had...Chuck Burrows/Alan Longmire [ ? which one ] tell me once that Osage orange was used in the SW for blade handles. Is this smith account above the source?

Interesting indeed.

If you are talking about the osage handled trade knife I once made and posted - it was not made to suggest that osage was a common handle material, on commercially made trade knives, but rather a piece that had been re-handled with osage by someone living on/passing through the eastern plains where osage is common (it was also exported by some trade companies to various western plains tribes, who found it made such good bows)> FWIW - of the hundreds of original/authentic western Indian/frontier commercial trade knives of the early to mid-1800's I have had the privilege to view/handle about 20% or so were re-handled in local woods/antler and maybe 35-40% of those were totally re-purposed by re-shaping worn/broken blades plus changing handles.

PS this is the first time I've read the passage above regarding Smithwick's osage handled Bowies

 

[Rifleman1776]

Very interesting and seemingly unbiased. I would suggest anyone with an interest in Bowie knives take the time to read this post.
Thank you Rifleman 1776 for posting this. I enjoyed it very much. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:

Thanks Wick. I'm going to have to stop needling you and the Texan about Bowie knives now. :wink:
Much of what I thought I knew is not substantiated by that study. I have met Bill Worthen on two occasions, fine fellow and brilliant academic. Arkansas is lucky to have him as the administrator/curator for our state museum.
However, in the minds and hearts of Arkansans, the legend of the first Bowie knife being made by James Black in Old Washington lives on. I have been in the original shop and could feel his presence still present. I ain't gonna argue with a crazy blind ghost with knives. :shocked2: :wink:

 

[salkehatchie]

Wow. Had no clue when I started this thread where it would lead.

Fantastic info!

I had...Chuck Burrows/Alan Longmire [ ? which one ] tell me once that Osage orange was used in the SW for blade handles. Is this smith account above the source?

Interesting indeed.

If you are talking about the osage handled trade knife I once made and posted - it was not made to suggest that osage was a common handle material, on commercially made trade knives, but rather a piece that had been re-handled with osage by someone living on/passing through the eastern plains where osage is common (it was also exported by some trade companies to various western plains tribes, who found it made such good bows)> FWIW - of the hundreds of original/authentic western Indian/frontier commercial trade knives of the early to mid-1800's I have had the privilege to view/handle about 20% or so were re-handled in local woods/antler and maybe 35-40% of those were totally re-purposed by re-shaping worn/broken blades plus changing handles.

PS this is the first time I've read the passage above regarding Smithwick's osage handled Bowies

Very interesting info. Just goes to show one how resourceful those old boys were. Would love to see what they did.

There was a guy I knew that went to the museums in Scotland often. He said, in their storage areas were weapons that had not seen the light of day for centuries.

Dirks, that were obviously hand made. Working class items, not for the lairds and gents. Not the "museum" quality that we all are exposed to now days. But still, some very cool, but "mundane" items according to what we think now days as a Scottish dirk.