How tight should a conical be ?

[crockett]

I size the bullets I cast for a SAA Colt 45 so I am somewhat familiar with sizing but never thought about a muzzle loading conical. I thought if you bought a 54 conical for a 54 bore- that the diameter was correct. How would you size a conical? Do you size to the lands or groove diameter or somewhere inbetween? When I load the first of the day, after it is seated with a short starter- THAT first conical goes down pretty good but thereafter, once the bore is fouled, even when I swab with a couple of patches the following conicals are difficult.
Just so we are all on the same page. I don't use a patch with a conical and with a solid base I was told the conical needs to deform to the lands and grooves in order to get a tight seal.

 

[fleener]

Size to the lands

Not all barrels and conicals are the same size

Fleener

 

[fleener]

I get a new gun I might use 5-10 different bullets to see what the rifle likes. They are all different.

Fleener

 

[nkbj]

Crockett, the folks at Tennessee Bullet Molds can make you a push through sizer with 7/8" threads to fit a standard press. In the recent past their delivered to your door prices were very reasonable. I use one for the .40 fast twist made at .399 diameter and another at .595 to true up balls from an out of round Lee mold. The only difficulty for me using their die is pre-alignment of some bullet designs before sizing begins. The lead in to the sizing portion inside the die is conical in shape without a cylindrical pre-aligning approach.
When pushing a small diameter paper patched bullet up through the die it can difficult for me to keep it straight. For sizing cast lead bullets the simplicity can't be beat.

 

[oldbrass]

Hey Oldbrass, by the way and just curious, have you tried the TC maxihunter in your .54?

No sir I haven`t but I hear good things..But I hear good things about the REAL also...I need to decide quick on a load as we start scouting next week

 

[crockett]

I want to thank everyone on this- if I size to the lands do I use just the conical or do I add a paper wrap or cloth patch? If the conical is sized to the lands I am thinking there will be gas cutting in the grooves- that's why I was wondering if a paper or cloth patch is used; or, some sort of wad over the powder, etc.
I'd use conicals if I could load them more easily.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I haven't chimed in yet but will now add a couple thoughts based on my limited personal experience using conicals in ml rifles. One time was with a TC 'hawken' rifle using the TC maxi balls. Fit was snug going in. But, in during the October ml deer season the weather can get fairly warm. I found that the steel barrel and lead slug expand at different rates. This caused the slug to slide down/up the bore towards the muzzle. A very bad and dangerous situation indeed. Another time I tried a different, hollow base minie style, slug with same unacceptable results.
I have also tried a hollow base bullet in my wifes .40 rifle and slug slid in that too.
My conclusion, don't do it. The fun in this game is using a prb. :2

 

[Adui]

You know, way back when I first got my .50, I wanted to hunt with her. I thought I had to use conicals so I bought some T&C Maxihunters at $10 per box or so. I sighted it in with what i thought was an acceptable hunting load Accuracy sucked, but I didnt know how to accurize then. I got all shots on a pie plate at 100 yards but not much better.

What I do remember is spending a lot of xtra money on those conicals, and beating the heck out of myself from the heavy charge behind the 375 grain bullet. I found I got better accuracy out of the round ball, and at 176 grains its as heavy or heavier than any of the unmentionables used in that area for deer.. I decided I didnt need the conical..

 

[nkbj]

I want to thank everyone on this- if I size to the lands do I use just the conical or do I add a paper wrap or cloth patch? If the conical is sized to the lands I am thinking there will be gas cutting in the grooves- that's why I was wondering if a paper or cloth patch is used; or, some sort of wad over the powder, etc.
I'd use conicals if I could load them more easily.

Grooved and lubed heavy bullets can be loaded with the lead against the bore as with the New Englander shown in the previous photo. The lead fills up the grooves when slammed from behind because the rear end of the bullet starts moving before the front end does. Seems like there's just no way it could be accurate from shot to shot but in fact some of the most accurate muzzleloading rifles operate that way. Some of the parameters for success with that method are (usually):
(1) Bullet has enough inertia to cause itself to expand with the useful powder charge.
(2) Gas cutting is avoided. Card wads are frequently found to aid in creating a dam.
(3) A polished barrel.
The relined New Englander does so well with this method that the only paper patched I have used are some plain based semi-wadcutters cast from straight lead.


Sometimes paper patching will be found to be the key for higher powered loads. The bullet and the wrapped paper thicknesses can add up the bore diameter or they can be sized down a little after wrapping to make the wrapped bullet meet bore diameter. I have used both methods.
Sometimes with paper patched the over powder cards are needed and especially if the bullet is being pushed hard as with a hunting load.
One aspect of paper patched bullets that hunters enjoy is how a properly sized paper patched bullet is stuck in the barrel until the rifle is fired. If the bullet loads and seats with pressure due to the friction of the paper then it does not move. Target shooters do not typically have their bullets so constructed because their game does not require such but a precision fit is not difficult to achieve. Again, a polished (and meticulously maintained) bore is important.
Hope that helps.
Best wishes.

 

[crockett]

Thanks- gives me something to work on. When I see a paper patched bullet it has always seemed to me the paper would get sheared off as you seat the bullet. I assume the bullet is sized down a little more if paper is used. Those bullets, is the paper just put on them or are the grease grooves on the bullet filled and then the paper added. What type of paper is used and is it left dry or lubed? In the photo it looks like the paper is tied in back?
As you can tell, I know nothing about paper patched bullets.

 

[Billnpatti]

I must make this disclaimer first.....I am not a fan of paper patched bullets. Not because they do not work, but because they are too much trouble for what in my opinion, is no gain. I tried using paper patched bullets back many years ago. I tired them in my T/C Hawken using sized MaxiBalls and wrapping them in onion skin paper (back when that stuff could still be found). My method was to size the bullet down by running it through a custom made die. I sized them to just slightly greater than the land diameter. One of the sized but unwrapped Maxis would very easily load but still very slightly engage the lands. You could easily start it with just your thumb. Anyway, I cut my patches in the same pattern as one would when making a cartridge for a Civil War style rifle only smaller. I dampened the paper on a sponge that was used for moistening stamps at the office. Then I would carefully wrap the paper snugly around Maxi with the tail of the paper wrap ending up at the base. I wrapped it so that when loaded, the Maxi would be turning in a direction that the paper would be wrapped tighter rather than trying to be unwound. I folded the paper over the base and then put the wrapped bullet into a block of wood into which I had drilled half inch blind holes that were about half the bullet's length in depth. This would keep the paper in place as it dried. Once dried, it was much less likely to come loose if handled reasonably carefully. Prior to loading, I would wipe a light coat of Bore Butter on the paper. I may or may not have been doing everything correctly but my experience found that all of that work gained me nothing over just using a bare Maxi with a good coat of lubricant in the grooves. I also found that I needed to wipe the bore after every shot with the paper wrapped bullets. It was shortly later that I was shown how to put a little bit of cornmeal on top of my powder and got even better accuracy from the Maxis. Some years later, I found out about using OP felt wads for better accuracy. But, I don't think I have used a single one of my Maxis in years. Not since I found that a .50 cal. patched round ball was deadly on white tail deer and I also found and purchased a copy of Dutch Schoultz' Muzzleloading Rifle Accuracy System. Now that T/C Hawken is deadly on deer within 100 yards and a Maxi is just not needed. The system worked wonders on the rest of my rifles, too. If you don't have a copy, go online to www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com and order a copy. Best $20 you can spend on muzzleloading.

 

[nkbj]

Thanks- gives me something to work on. When I see a paper patched bullet it has always seemed to me the paper would get sheared off as you seat the bullet. I assume the bullet is sized down a little more if paper is used. Those bullets, is the paper just put on them or are the grease grooves on the bullet filled and then the paper added. What type of paper is used and is it left dry or lubed? In the photo it looks like the paper is tied in back?
As you can tell, I know nothing about paper patched bullets.

With muzzleloading paper patched bullets the lube grooves are not needed, the grooves just happen to be there in most molds. The chances of the bullet slipping the patch once the powder is ignited are slim and none. When you are loading the bullet however, you can slip the patch if you have no grooves, the fit to the bore is very tight and also to patch is folded over the bullet base rather than having a twisted tail.

As to the type of paper, almost any thin (

 

[crockett]

Thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

 

[Dickydalton]

I am surprised, after reading some of these posts,
that Hornady, and T/C are still in business. After all, with all those Maxi-Balls and Great plains bullets coming loose and causing guns to blow up, you would think they'd have been sued out of existence. At the risk of being personally attacked I submit that there's been a bit of m :idunno: anure spread here.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I find when the bullet loads pretty hard, they shoot best. I have never had a Hornady great plains bullet come off the powder. My groups with the TC bullets varied and was just so so.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

You may hold whatever opinion you want. The problem may not be common, but a fair number of us or our hunting partners HAVE experienced and/or witnessed conicals, especially but not exclusively Minié-type hollow based ones, moving off the charge or even sliding all the way out, or moving under recoil in the second barrel of doubles. Over-shot cards or paper patching are possible cures if one does have a combination (of bullet, lube, and bore) that does this which one still wishes to use.

Regards,
Joel