Hunting with real BP

[1816Rem]

After lurking here for some time without posting I have decided its time for me to post. I need help. To briefly introduce myself, I have owned and fired cap powered rifles, ie .36 KY and .50 TC Hawken, on and off for the past 25 years. Since I have been retired now for 5 years, I decided I might have enough time to own a flinter. I sold the 2 cap guns and brought a Remington 1816 rifle that was mfg by Hatfield with a Ketland style lock.

To date it shoots quite well. I still need to not become distracted by the pan. My only issue is a high frequency none fires. I now understand where the phase "flash in the pan" comes from. I have attempted the several solutions mentioned on this board. I load with 2F and prime with 3F. I clean the pan, frizzen and flint with alcohol between shots. Instead of a turkey quill I use a pin as a pick to maintain clear open pathway to the bore. I suspect I am not getting sufficient amount of sparks as often the powder in the pan has not ignited. Not having seen a flinter in action it is hard for me to judge the amount of sparks that I should be achieving. My focus has been achieving accuracy but I think that would improve if I could cut back on the none fires. Tomorrow I am going to experiment with changing the flint; now bevel up to bevel down, moving the flint closer to the frizzen. Any other ideas?

Another question comes from Remington literature where it states that BP should never be stored in plastic due to possible static electric charge. In the past I have always used Pyrodex and used small plastic vials to carry premeasured charges when I go hunting. I like this prctice and would like to continue. Is this a problem with BP?

In comparison with other boards on muzzleloading, this is by far the best of the lot..........

 

[roundball]

If your priming powder is not igniting, it surely sounds like you're not getting sparks into the priming.

You didn't mention what kind of flints you're using but they need to be razor sharp, and mine work best when they hit the frizzen at an ever so slightly downward chopping/slicing angle so they shave off hot sparks easily.

So assuming your powder is fresh and OK, either try new sharp flints or knapp the ones you have and see what happens...black english flints are very hard to beat for sharpness and dependability.

Note:
For testing pan ignition, you don't need a loaded gun, just:
1) ENSURE it's unloaded;
2) STILL PRACTICE safe gun handling techniques;
3) Then just use 3grns of priming powder in the pan and practice until you figure out what it takes to get the flint to make sparks off the frizzen every time;

Remember: The flint has to be clean, knapped often to keep them razor sharp, and impact the frizzen in a slicing angle...plus the frizzen has to be squeaky clean.

Based upon literature in the ML world, I've become convinced that static electricty does not ignite[url] BP...in[/url] addition, I've used plastic 35mm film canisters and plastic speedloaders for years with no static concerns.

One caution about 35mm film canisters for hunting however is that they're so flexible, they'll accidently open up in your pocker if side pressure is put against them like leaning against a tree, resting the rifle against them, or doing anything that puts pressure on them.

 

[Rat]

Swiss powder comes in plastic containers, so that should answer that one.

If your pan is flashing, then you are getting good enough spark and I would not start trouble shooting the flint or frizzen.

Sounds like perhaps your touch hole is on the small size. Open it up a bit and see what happens.

Ooops I see now you are saying that the pan is not flashing sometimes...then indeed you are not getting enough sparks into the priming powder. But then again it only takes one...am I correct to understand that it both flashes and does not fire, and also fails to flash?? Man...double trouble!!

:curse:

Perhaps you are a bit too "liberal" with the alcohol and are getting the touch hole wet with it. I don't think a good flinter needs to be cleaned with alcohol between shots...a clean dry peice of cloth should do it. Just try not using the alcohol, and wiping the frizzen and flint with a dry clean cloth. Again, suspend the alcohol treatment untill you get the gun 100% reliable.

Miss-fires should be very rare...something is wrong for sure. My Bess never fails to flash unless the flint gets dull, or the frizzen face is very fouled. My Bess's lock definately does not spark like "the Fourth of July", but again it is totally reliable. And if the pan flashes, it goes bang. I've only had one flash in the pan with no bang in the three years I've been shooting it.

It's funny that some find the flashing pan distracting...I'm not even aware of the pan going off...concentrate on the sights!!

:nono:

Anyhow...pan does not flash, or "miss-flashes" often...a spark problem for sure. Pan flashes but not the main charge, flash hole too small, or perhaps clogged with alcohol soaked powder...??? Alcohol seeping into the main charge??

Play with bevel up/bevel down...etc, is your frizzen soft? Dry-firing it with the gun unloaded should tell you whether you have enough spark or not. Again, you don't need a ton of sparks. Once you figure out what's wrong it should fire every time and you will enjoy it much more!

Something wrong with your powder?? Try some new stuff? You aren't using Pyrodex or 777 are you???

:cry: Sorry I had to ask...you never know about people.

Is this an original rifle?

Good luck, I'm sure the others can help you more.

Rat

 

[madstone]

Might try FFFFg for priming? Some locks just don't seem to ignite FFF well enough?

 

[1816Rem]

Thanks for the replys.....The rifle is not an orginal but one that was issued by Remington in 1995 as a commemorative.

I am using GOEX powders......

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Rem-

Couple of ideas for you.

When you play with adjusting the flint, get it as close to the frizzen as possible. It should barely clear when at the half cock possition.

You say you are cleaning the pan and touchhole with every shot. Are you wiping off the face of the frizzen? Not with your thumb either! Use a clean rag. No oil!

What part of the country are you in? I am pretty sure that there are a few of us flinter shooters in your neck of the woods. And most of us don't charge too awful much for coaching sessions! :crackup:

 

[CG6018]

My first "real" flintlock long rifle was a Hatfield which I bought from Cabela's several years ago. It was a pretty rifle and I was anxious to get the proper load established for our primitive season here in Pa. That rifle was the most frustrating flintlock firearm I have ever owned for the same flash-in-the-pan problems you are experiencing. It turned out that the touch hole was not located in front of the breech plug, but slightly in back of the breech plug's front surface. The breech plug surface was drilled to meet the touch hole. When you ran a cleaning patch down the barrel after a successful shot, some BP residue would jam the hole, and eventhough you picked the touch hole clean, you couldn't be assured of a successful discharge on the next shot. I shined and polished that rifle and sold it as soon as possible. I am not claiming that your problem is the same, I am only suggesting another possibility. All of my flintlocks now have Getz barrels and Siler locks, and if I do my part, they never let me down.

 

[Musketeer]

You don't say what type of flint you're using. If you happen to be using those machine cut agate flints, I would suggest getting rid of them and buying some black English flints (great stuff). Also, perphaps your hammer (frizzen) isn't properly hardened? If the frizzen is too soft, the flint may just be digging into it without creating enough sparks. Does the face of the frizzen look unduly chewed up?
If so, you may be able to resurface it and then harden it with Kasenit or a similar compound. How bout your mainspring? Does it feel nice and strong? Just a few ideas..... :thumbsup:

P.S. Some platic can build up quite a static charge, but plastic 35 mm film containers are usually made of HDPE(High Density Poly Ethylene)and are perfectly safe. Just look for the letters HDPE and/or the recycling number 2. I know for sure Pyrodex comes packaged in this material, and I would bet that the Swiss powder that comes in plastic cans uses it too.

I'm sure there are other types that are safe, but this is the only one I can personally vouch for. :thumbsup:

 

[1816Rem]

Another day messing around with my rifle with some possible progress but frustrated with my results. Being more aware of what is happening, I do believe when the powder in the pan is ignited I do obtain proper ignitation in the barrel.

This AM I could not get sufficient sparks with the flint that I was using and installed a back-up which I presume was new. Being that I purchased this rifle used, I do not know the history of the flints. The flints are black and appear to be hand cut by some dead *****. I understand the flints need to be sharp but what is "sharp"? None of the Gun shops in the near region have flints for sale. Tomorrow I am traveling 100 plus miles to a shop that does have them. It reminds me of when I first got this rifle I had to travel to another state (Vt) to get black powder.
It seems I read on this board recently that one only gets 25 hits on a flint. Is this correct? I have a lot more than that just trying to see sparks. The second flint did work better iniatially but than started to degrade. I line the flint at half notch barely touching the frizzen at a slight downward angle. I dry wipe the frizzen, pan and flint with a dry rag. The hammer spring seems strong. I will get strong sparks and then I might get barely any sparks. Tomorrow I will try the new flints.

Another problem I am having that I could use some advice is cleaning of the bore. I am frequently getting the ram rod jammed in the bore when running a patch thru with a cleaning jag. This is not fun. I tried a smaller jag where I trimed the patch and if there is build up after shooting some, even this becomes jammed. This also occurs when I run a patch down the bore between shots. What size patches do you folks use? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Shooting flintlocks is suppose to be fun, isn't it? More fun like this and I am likely to give up my retirement and go back to work. I understood flinters would be more difficult to use than cap guns but this is over the top.

The question came up as to where I live. I live in the adirondacks mountains in upstate New York, 12 miles MW of Saratoga Springs.

 

[roundball]

Small world...I just got back from visiting family in the Saratoga area...could have met with you a few minutes.

Sharp flint means paper thin razor sharp edge, will slice your finger open in a heartbeat.
Check that the edge of the flint looks like a razor blade, and I literally mean like the edge of a razor blade...the single MOST COMMON reason for poor sparks is a dull flint.

 

[madstone]

1816
If your lock is not reliably sparking, that is with consistency, look to the flint. Get FFFFg and use for prime, the FFF and FF for load. Just a chance?
I never had this much trouble, even with cheap flintlocks as long as my flint was good and FFFFg was used to prime.
The FFF will fire cleaner, too!
As to cleaning problems, ala tight patch, a slightly smaller jag might help. The patch must be fitted to the ball for good accuracy. The jag need only maintain a grasp on the patch while swabbing the bore.
:results:

 

[Rebel]

Make sure the patch is damp before swabbing the bore after a shot. A dry patch will stick in the bore nearly every time.

 

[1816Rem]

Roundball, Thanks.......My flints are not that sharp. They would not cut your finger and likely would need some pressure to cut cheese. How many shots does one get from a flint? How do you judge when it is time to swap flints so you do not have loss of flash? New flints for me tomorrow and I'll report back.

You should have stayed longer in saratoga as muzzleloading season starts this saturday. I have a buck all tried up but I'm afraid he will starve before I get this flinter working....

 

[1816Rem]

Rebel, Thanks.....""A dry patch will stick in the bore nearly every time."" I think I proved that today.

What material is the cleaning patch made of that you use? What size cleaning patch do you use? What do you use to dampen the patch? Do you use a cleaning jag or some other tip?

 

[bdarin]

I too have just started with flint, been shooting caps since 1971. What I find works: Swab the bore between shots, no more than 3 shots before swabbing. I use a Traditions pre soaked patch, the bio-friendly kind for black powder. Check the label, if it has the "harmful or fatal if swallowed" label then it's petroleum based and you don't want it. Wipe the pan and frizzen with dry cloth. Make sure the touch hole is dry, then poke a straightened paper clip in the hole to make sure it's clear. Also wipe off flint. I charge with Goex FF and prime with Goex FFFF. Since I haven't yet bothered to learn how to knapp a flint, I only get about 10-12 shots off before it misfires. I'll twist it slightly in the hammer (cock?) every so often just to keep it going. Patches are 2" dia. or 3" squares with a cleaning jag. Gun fires every time, is accurate. :relax: Don't take it too seriously. This is supposed to be fun, remember? :blah: :thumbsup:

 

[chickenlittle]

Generic plastic or HDPE would not be ESD safe (ESD=electrostatic discharge) but can be made safe by adding conductive particles. Enough carbon black or graphite would make it conductive enough that static charge won't build up. So black colored HDPE, like film canisters, is probably ESD safe. I'd guess this is what is used for Swiss Powder, as well as Pyrodex and 777.

 

1816 I'm going to make a suggestion that may sound foolish, but that I have found useful. Often one cannot detirmine if proper spark is present in the daylight or bright light. With the rifle unloaded, go into a dark room and snap the lock while watching for the sparks.

If outside and at the range, just pour the pan full and watch for the smoke. The barrel does not have to be charged for these type tests.

Pour a hundred grains of powder down the tube without a ball, a blank load, and see if it touches off.

My flint guns give me much less trouble than percussion guns and you should not be haveing such difficulty. The only thing you should have to do differently than with your cap rifles is to prime the pan, clear the vent between shots and make sure the flint is sharp.

I am afraid that your gun has a patient breech, which some people actually prefer, but I find prone to fouling problems and constant misfires.

:results:

 

[roundball]

I average in the range of 40-60 shots per 3/4" black english flint...usually 10-15 before knapping the edge or simply flipping it over.

Here's some excellent info:

http://blackpowderhunting.org/flint1.htm#top

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/flintlockfaq.html

http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=flintlock.htm&url=http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/tuning.htm

 

[tg]

It most likely does not matter what type of plastic is used as it has been shown that BP will not ignite by static discharge.

 

[roundball]

I am afraid that your gun has a patient breech, which some people actually prefer, but I find prone to fouling problems and constant misfires.

:huh:
Just curious to know the basis for the statement...because one of the main benefits of the patent breech design and evolution is just the opposite...they're fast and clean.

Been using them on a dozen + percussion and/or flintlocks for nearly 15 years, typically shoot a 40 shot range session, never wipe between shots, and never use a vent pick...patent breeches give virtually flawless operation